Biwire versus high quality jumpers

Hi all,

This may have been discussed previously so I apologize in advance if that's the case.

What's anyone's experience with the above?

GG

Gordon Gray said:

Hi all,

This may have been discussed previously so I apologize in advance if that's the case.

What's anyone's experience with the above?

GG

Click to expand...

No recent experience here--but I do have a set of Nordost Norse Jumpers in for review. My Spires are currently bi-wired (with Nordost Frey), so I am very much looking forward to experimenting with the Norse links vs bi-wiring vs normal wiring with the ML-supplied jumpers.

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the response.

I think there's a general consensus that the supplied ML jumper is of very low quality so I wouldn't be surprised if there were a major difference.

My specific question relates to sonic differences when using a high quality jumper connection such as the Nordost. I'm currently using the Analysis Plus Oval 12 on my Summits. Spade termination with the Monster Cable expandable banana plug.

FWIW, went to the Cable Company site to check out products and price ranges. $25 to $3,300.

Why one would pay $3,300 for a set of 6" jumpers is beyond me but someone probably has.

GG

Gordon, do your forthcoming mbl's have bi-wire capability?

Back when I had my ReQuest's I had bi-wired them and felt they sounded much better than the included jumpers. I never did experiment with simple improved jumpers though. My current CLS's of course only have provision for single wire (no crossover).

Gordon Gray said:

the supplied ML jumper is of very low quality so I wouldn't be surprised if there were a major difference.

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Myself while I might acknowledge a difference I doubt very much that it would be 'major' , of course that depends on ones definition of the word. My reason for stating this is if it were the case I suspect ML would have provided the inexspensive solution. I wonder if anyone has done a DBT on this switch ??

Why one would pay $3,300 for a set of 6" jumpers is beyond me but someone probably has.GG

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beyond me as well Gordon but there are more fruitcakes in this hobby than you can shake a stick at !

Dave and Tim,

Thanks for the response.

Tim, from my experience, the supplied ML jumpers are really marginal. My sense is that ML did not want to waste money figuring the users would likely either bi wire or substitute a higher quality jumper.

Dave, I know it's very difficult to describe the "relative" difference because it will vary with each individual and each system. However, any input would be helpful.

I can bi wire but I think given the 10 gauge size of my current DH Labs speaker wire (18" long), both Darren (DH Labs designer) and my MBL dealer felt it would be more cost effective and better sounding, absent going for a thicker gauge cable, to use the DH Labs on top and a high quality jumper.

I don't want to buy new speaker cable if I can avoid.

Going thought is to try the Walker solid silver jumpers. A bit pricey at $325 but certainly less that buying new cable.

Would appreciate anyone's input on the Walker if they have tried in their system.

JV of TAS speaks highly of them.

Thanks again.

Gordon

I know you are considering links, Gordon, but I thought I'd mention I had some fun with my Ascents by bi-wiring with dis-similar cables i.e. solid core for the panels and multi-strand for the bass. This gave better bass than the all solid core option. Maybe that's one avenue you could explore in time by borrowing cables.

That said, DIY links are easy and can be made in 5 minutes. We did it yesterday at a bake-off. Just use a small length of your speaker cable. You then have a consistent link of cable type if you like the philosophy of that. That said, cutting up esoteric speaker cable may not be practical or something you'd like to do.

Justin,

With my current amp, I can't run separate leads to the top and bass module. I need to make this work "the best" with what I have.

The one option has been discussed. Would run 10 ga. wire to the tweeter / mid range module and then install strap to the bass module using a lug terminated wire attached to the Monster Cable X terminator banana plug.

The other option, which I would appreciate your and others input on, is to have my DH Labs Q10 speaker wire modified to have a bi wire set up at the speaker end.

If modified as described above, one lead would be 12 ga., the other 14. If I did this, I would assume the 12 ga. lead would go to the upper module and the 14 ga. lead to the woofer module. Or perhaps the other way.

Darren / DH Labs had concerns given the fact that the wire is 18' long. The wire has a very low resistance factor.

Any comments / suggestions on what may be better?

Also, if I go with the strap set up, I can have Darren make the straps out of the Q10 wire and have terminated with banana plugs. The other iteration is to use my Analysis Plus straps or try the Walker solid silver wire straps.

Gordon

Gordon Gray said:

I wouldn't be surprised if there were a major difference.

Click to expand...

Gordon Gray said:

Why one would pay $3,300 for a set of 6" jumpers is beyond me but someone probably has.

GG

Click to expand...

I wouldn't think it would be major either. Anything but.

Before anyone goes out and spends $3,300 (or $300 for that matter) on a set of jumpers, firstly open your Martin Logan and have a look at what the signal goes through after it has gone through your expensive jumper (or cable.)

Note the scrawny little runty cable that no self-respecting audiophile would be seen dead with between his amp and the outside of his speakers. Note the 30-cent crossover components.

Now look up the general consensus on snobby audiophile forums regarding some of those aforementioned components. That's the ones that you can even look up (ie.the ones that aren't no-name.)

Can't see it = cheap components and no money spent
BUT
Can't see it ≠ out of your signal path.

They still sound good, don't they?

Try this with your amp as well to see what the signal goes through BEFORE your expensive audio jewellery.

It is my opinion that it is better to spend money on engineering, not snake oil. $ for $ - traditional upgrades will serve better.

amey01 said:

I wouldn't think it would be major either. Anything but.

Before anyone goes out and spends $3,300 (or $300 for that matter) on a set of jumpers, firstly open your Martin Logan and have a look at what the signal goes through after it has gone through your expensive jumper (or cable.)

Note the scrawny little runty cable that no self-respecting audiophile would be seen dead with between his amp and the outside of his speakers. Note the 30-cent crossover components.

Now look up the general consensus on snobby audiophile forums regarding some of those aforementioned components. That's the ones that you can even look up (ie.the ones that aren't no-name.)

Can't see it = cheap components and no money spent
BUT
Can't see it ≠ out of your signal path.

They still sound good, don't they?

Try this with your amp as well to see what the signal goes through BEFORE your expensive audio jewellery.

It is my opinion that it is better to spend money on engineering, not snake oil. $ for $ - traditional upgrades will serve better.

Click to expand...

You can easily try it with a set of jumpers and see if makes a difference. When I had my Ascents, the Transparent jumpers made a noticeable difference in my fairly transparent system.

A lot of Soundlab guys like to tweak their speakers, pulling apart the crossover components, swapping transformers, using better wire, etc. I think individually these make small differences, like tweaks, but in sum the differences are not small. Of course, doing an a/b comparison is ideal and is not available for most of these guys. However, a tweak like different jumpers is easy to pull of.

Just like any tweak, money should be spent last here. Better to save $$$ for a better amp or a better source.

Gordon Gray said:

Hi all,

This may have been discussed previously so I apologize in advance if that's the case.

What's anyone's experience with the above?

GG

Click to expand...

Gordon,

I never played around with this, but I had a conversation with this with Chris Russel of Bryston regarding bi-amping vs. bi-wiring that may be helpful. The simple answer is that the difference bi-wiring makes is dependent on the amp. Russell actually told me not to buy a second Bryston amp, but just to bi-wire, as I would get most of the benefits of bi-amping due to the way their amps deal with the changes in the load. And the improvements should be substantial with Bryston amps.


And Russell is respected by objectivists for Bryston's superb measurements and for those who like the precise, detailed, and clean sound of the Brystons. He is one of the heroes for the "all amps sound the same" crowd.

So the thing is to just try some cables with your amps, speakers, and cables. (I know people love "it depends" answers, but so is the nature of the hobby.)

Good Luck

Adam,

Thanks for your input.

I have no intention of buying a $3,300 pair of jumper cables. Or, to use your term, expensive audio jewelry.

My question pertains to my recent purchase of the MBL 116's, not ML speakers.

Am exploring "reasonable" options to optimize performance using the gear that I currently own.

David, thank you also. Very constructive comments. Will see how the 250.5 does. My sense is that it will do quite well but we shall see.

Gordon

I bi-wire Atma-Sphere MA1's into Requests using SignalCable and it made a huge difference over the stock clips, but I don't exactly know why. Electrostatic speakers are usually a difficult load for OTL amplifiers and I suspect that with bi-wiring, one of the two current paths (the woofer) helps to maintain a higher impedance for the amp to run into than if the two loads were in parallel over the same conductor.

Whatever the reason, it worked in my setup.

Tj

same thing with the Vistas.. the seemed to have pretty cheap jumpers.

When I go my Vista's, I did bi-amp with two sets of cables.. Signal Cable to the bass & Nordost to the panels.
I then ordered the Anti-Cable jumpers. Don't know if my AVR is too resolving but I ended up got back to a single cable and did notice an improvement with the Anti-Cable jumpers. They're cheap enough for a try.

Gordon Gray said:

Adam,

Thanks for your input.

I have no intention of buying a $3,300 pair of jumper cables. Or, to use your term, expensive audio jewelry.

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I have no doubt. It's just that you asked for opinions on the same. So I gave mine, for what it's worth.

That said, I have no doubt they make a difference in some, if not all, setups.

It's just that I see two challenges pertaining to audio tweaks. They are:

1: There is a difference, but is it better? (or just different).
2: If there is a difference and that difference *IS* better - is it worth the expense?

amey01 said:

It's just that I see two challenges pertaining to audio tweaks. They are:

1: There is a difference, but is it better? (or just different).
2: If there is a difference and that difference *IS* better - is it worth the expense?

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I'll see your two and raise you one more.........how about there is no difference...ie. psychoacoustics ! like it or not it is a valid possibility

Interesting thread. When I had bought my Summits, the dealer was running them with some Tara Labs bi-wire cables, and he threw them in a for a song with the Summits. So I was never faced with the "should I buy cheap or expensive cables, and should I bi wire or not" dilemna. Phew . I am an "objectivist" and if I had not got the bi wire Taras cheap, i almost certainly would not have gone bi-wire plus expensive cable. One of these days, I might try and test alternatives.

I saw a recent thread where someone said that his Summits Bass is compromised by bi-wire cables and the bass sounds better with a single cable. I must confess I hate my Summit's bass. I always attributed it to my enormous room but am intrigued by the possibility that maybe it's the wire? I am going to de-lazy myself one of these days and test this hypothesis.

Any thoughts from the experts or from the gentleman who had originally started the "Summits should not be bi-wired" thread?

Gordon Gray said:

Adam,

Thanks for your input.

I have no intention of buying a $3,300 pair of jumper cables. Or, to use your term, expensive audio jewelry.

My question pertains to my recent purchase of the MBL 116's, not ML speakers.

Am exploring "reasonable" options to optimize performance using the gear that I currently own.

David, thank you also. Very constructive comments. Will see how the 250.5 does. My sense is that it will do quite well but we shall see.

Gordon

Click to expand...

Gordon, per my PM to you, I have also bought MBLs recently. I got a pair of 111e's. The dealer is sending them with a set of Cardas jumpers (around $400 used - $1200 retail) and Tara RSC bi wire cables. He said if I can't hear the difference (versus the MBL stock jumper and my existing cables), I can return the cables at no cost. I will test these and let you know what I hear.

Frankly, I am betting that I cant hear the difference but I am intrigued by my dealer's confidence that I will hear a difference!

In the past, I have never been able to hear differences in most cables but my system has become better and better with time as I have moved up the food chain to Summits, Bel canto amps, TADAC pre-amp and now MBLs driven by an MBL 7008 integrated. One of these weekeneds, i intend to pull out all my old cables from 14 gauge to 12 gauge to audiophile 12 gauge to 10 gauge to bi-wires and try and test them all.

twich54 said:

I'll see your two and raise you one more.........how about there is no difference...ie. psychoacoustics ! like it or not it is a valid possibility

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Dave,

You could be right, of course. But there is also always a possibility of a real, but small improvement. Take a case of a German, sports sedan. The thing has 330 hp. Most people, when they press on the gas pedal, crap in their pants, as the car takes off like a rocket. Good enough for most people!

Now there are some companies that sell performance chips for a few grand that boost the performance by 10% or 15% for $2K-$3.5k on top of a $50K+ sedan. Does everyone need or want those chips? No. They may be in heaven already and not focused on that extra bit of performance. But for someone who is engaged, the regular engine may not be the end all be all.

Now, of couse, it is dumb to get this chip until you get your ultimate vehicle. But once you are there, why not?

I don't think that is a good analogy - there are legitimate measurable performance gains in your scenario.