Pass Labs X350.5 compared to MBL 8011AM amps?

Hi Folks

We have oft debated the merits of one amp versus another but, like Gordon, I am considering getting MBLs possibly as a second system. My main system is ML Summits. As I started investigating MBL speakers, its hard not to miss the MBL amplifiers...

Surprisingly, I couldn't find too much discussion on this forum on the relative merits of MBL amps versus the forum favorite - Pass Labs. James with his all-MBL system appears to be one of the few MBL amp afficionados.

The MBL entry level amp, the 8011, is more expensive even compared to Pass Labs X350.5 while the MBL 9 series are 3x to 10x that! For a roughly similar street value (~$8-9k/pair), the 8011 monoblocks deliver 310W at 4 ohm (the same as an X 150.5) while the Pass x350.5 delivers 700W at 4 ohms. I get the whole "all watts are not equal" argument but this is Pass we're talking about! What does MBL do with their amps to command a 2-3 X premium over other hi-end gear like Pass for a similar Class A/B Solid State design? And the Pass almost certainly delivers more Class A watts (~50) before switching to A/B.

Highly transparent speakers such as CLX, Summits or MBL 111/116's should clearly play out the differences between these amps. Have any PassLabs veterans compared the X250.5/350.5 with MBL 8011, 9007, 9008, 9011 series amplifiers and if so, what did you find?

What about the Pass INT-150 versus the MBL 7008 integrated, where again the Pass is 300W versus 200w for the MBL (at 4 ohms), yet the MBL is more expensive?

thanks for your insights
adanny

It does seem that the vast majority of MBL speakers are accompanied by MBL amps. I find that easy to understand given the "one stop shop" buyer frame of mind.

And it is unfortunate that there's little info on MBL amps driving non MBL speakers. I think it's right to assume that there's a synergy between the MBL speakers and amps. One common denominator would be the need for a very stable, high current amp given the inefficiency of MBL speakers. But I do question if something else is going on such as tonal voicing that compliments the MBL speaker. Or it could be that MBL charges a premium price for their product because they can.

It would be interesting to have the opportunity to insert their amp into my system once I become accustomed to my 250.5 driving the 116's. I will be able to provide some feedback on the 250.5 / 116 combo in the near future. Needless to say, I have my fingers, toes, and everything else that I can cross crossed hoping for the best.

One of my fears is that the 116's will cause me to contemplate replacing other components in my system, which is something I have no desire to do.

GG

Gordon Gray said:

It would be interesting to have the opportunity to insert their amp into my system once I become accustomed to my 250.5 driving the 116's. I will be able to provide some feedback on the 250.5 / 116 combo in the near future. Needless to say, I have my fingers, toes, and everything else that I can cross crossed hoping for the best.

One of my fears is that the 116's will cause me to contemplate replacing other components in my system, which is something I have no desire to do.

GG

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Completely agree with your "one-stop" and system synergy points. Most MBL speaker buyers don't want to mess with the magic, have the money and buy the amps that their dealer recommends or that they heard them with.

My guess is that your 250.5 will power them beautifully. But wish you or someone could A/B against MBL amps!

Good luck on your 116 journey. After X+ years with Summits and other stats, its probably feeling like breaking up with your HS GF after going to college...

Gordon Gray said:

It does seem that the vast majority of MBL speakers are accompanied by MBL amps. I find that easy to understand given the "one stop shop" buyer frame of mind.

And it is unfortunate that there's little info on MBL amps driving non MBL speakers. I think it's right to assume that there's a synergy between the MBL speakers and amps. One common denominator would be the need for a very stable, high current amp given the inefficiency of MBL speakers. But I do question if something else is going on such as tonal voicing that compliments the MBL speaker. Or it could be that MBL charges a premium price for their product because they can.

It would be interesting to have the opportunity to insert their amp into my system once I become accustomed to my 250.5 driving the 116's. I will be able to provide some feedback on the 250.5 / 116 combo in the near future. Needless to say, I have my fingers, toes, and everything else that I can cross crossed hoping for the best.

One of my fears is that the 116's will cause me to contemplate replacing other components in my system, which is something I have no desire to do.

GG

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I've heard the 116s with a £60 Tripath chip amp, a Graaf 5050, and my own pretty expensive 211 based amps. I've no doubt the Pass will sound good - even the £60 amp produced quite listenable results. Seriously!

My audiophile cred just went down the drain...

Nah - you never had any audiophile cred to start with, Justin! :ROFL: ... only kidding.

I've already shared some thoughts with Gordon Gray by PM about amps I have tried with my own MBL 116F speakers.

... I've tried a whole bunch from, as Justin says, a £60/$100 TA2020 T-amp to a Chapter Audio Two+ power amp (£5.5k) and Justin's 211 valve monos, and quite a few in-between in terms of price. But no, no MBL amps yet.

I think it is too easy to assume the MBL 116 are difficult to drive because of their low sensitivity. But in practice, they are a very easy electrical load, the quoted 4 ohms is a bit misleading based on technical measurements I have seen of the 116E (the model that Gordon is buying). For these the impedance is between 6 and 10 ohms except above 10KHz, where it does briefly drop down to 4 ohms. Not a challenge for any amp, really. But sure, for large rooms / very high levels you do need some more power on tap than a t-amp can provide.

The MBL speakers very readily show differences between amps, and all sound surprisingly fine. Yes, imho you really can power the MBLs with a tiny 6wpc t-amp with very listenable results, although to an extent that does depend on your music choices. Fans of techno-dance probably need not apply!

I think the best sound I have had so far (for my tastes, obviously, which are primarily classical music of all scales) is a Unison Research Unico Secondo ss/valve hybrid integrated amp. It doesn't have the sheer transparency and astonishing image focus of the TA2020 t-amp, or the heart-stopping SLAM of a Perreaux PMF2150B power amp. But it does sound very naturally musical, vibrant & involving, which is close enough to Heaven to have satisfied me for quite a few weeks now.

Jerry,

Shipping tomorrow. Should be here next week.

Danny,

I've had a very good run with ML's. Four different models covering some 20 + years of musical joy. Having said that, was listening to an excellent Stravinsky SACD last night and asked myself why I'm doing this.

Gordon

Gordon Gray said:

I've had a very good run with ML's. Four different models covering some 20 + years of musical joy. Having said that, was listening to an excellent Stravinsky SACD last night and asked myself why I'm doing this.

Gordon

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1) I found 20 years to be a suitable ML timeout period. You only have one life!

2) They'll never make it next week, Gordon. Todd will vouch for that.

3) When they do arrive, if they are in one piece, it really is party time:band:

4) 3 won't happen.

My oh my, what have you done?:ROFL:

Panic... buyers remorse already???

BTW: anything Jerry says - don't listen to him, as within two weeks he will have another super duper amp which is the best so far. Guaranteed. Gotta love him for his constant box swapping antics, though.

That is very helpful! My room is on the large side (26 x 40') and I listen to a range of music from Jazz to Classical to Rock. Not loud all the time (mostly 75-85 db) but will occasionally push it to ~100 db and want the flexibility to do so.

I am debating various amp/pre-amp options to drive them. In increasing order of more money, options are...
1. Pass INT-150 (300 W at 4 ohm)
2. MBL Integrated 7008 (200 W at 4 Ohm; kills me that this is less power for more money versus Pass-L!!)
3. Pass X250.5 (500 W at 4 Ohm), mated with some ~$2k pre-amp
4. MBL 8011 am (310 W at 4 Ohm) with some ~$2k pre-amp

Its reassuring that essentially any of the above will work. Option 3 is roughly double the first two options, and option 4 is roughly triple. I am personally leaning towards 1 or 2 essentially because I'm already guilty dropping so much on a second system Thoughts based on your experience?

Gordon Gray said:

Having said that, was listening to an excellent Stravinsky SACD last night and asked myself why I'm doing this.

Gordon

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Don't worry, my bet is that you'll remember why once you've got the MBLs settled in!

Thanks Jerry.

I've heard enough of the line to be confident.

Also, there's no turning back now. Ship has left the harbor.

adanny said:

That is very helpful! My room is on the large side (26 x 40') and I listen to a range of music from Jazz to Classical to Rock. Not loud all the time (mostly 75-85 db) but will occasionally push it to ~100 db and want the flexibility to do so.

I am debating various amp/pre-amp options to drive them. In increasing order of more money, options are...
1. Pass INT-150 (300 W at 4 ohm)
2. MBL Integrated 7008 (200 W at 4 Ohm; kills me that this is less power for more money versus Pass-L!!)
3. Pass X250.5 (500 W at 4 Ohm), mated with some ~$2k pre-amp
4. MBL 8011 am (310 W at 4 Ohm) with some ~$2k pre-amp

Its reassuring that essentially any of the above will work. Option 3 is roughly double the first two options, and option 4 is roughly triple. I am personally leaning towards 1 or 2 essentially because I'm already guilty dropping so much on a second system Thoughts based on your experience?

Click to expand...

Danny,

The Pass INT 150 has consistently received rave reviews. One commonality in all, which is not surprising, is that the unit is a bit "dry" in the mids and highs. Having said that, recently saw one on the gon for around $4K. If you buy and ultimately don't like, you can always resell.

GG

PS: What MBL speaker are you considering?

Considering several - 111, 116, 121 with sub

Just spring for a Pass X-350.5 and never look back. You won't regret it. Sorry, but I can't give you a comparison with the MBL's. I can just tell you that it creates magic with ML's.

Folks - I finally decided to go the MBL route. Have bought a set of MBL 111e's and decided to match it with an MBL 7008 integrated. The logic basically was:
1. Lots of "evidence"/belief that MBL's match very well/best with MBLs. At least, you can't go wrong with that route.
2. After speaking directly with both Pass (Kent) and MBL (Peter Alexander), and the only dealer I know who carried both, I became convinced that the MBL pre-amp brings more to the party than the Pass-Int pre-amp. It certainly has more features that matter (e.g. HT by pass, head phone) than the Pass which is essentially an analog volume mated to an X150.5 . MBL said that they have ported a substantial amount of technology, parts and IP from their highly rated 6010 and 5010 pre-amps (mostly from the latter) - each of which are more than $10k. Pass on the other hand said quite directly (to their credit) that reviews which have stated that the Pass-Int is an X150.5 mated to an XP-10 are exaggerating. Its more accurate to say that this integrated is an X150.5 mated to a set of inputs and an analog volume control. The dealer said the same thing.
3. MBL is running ridiculous deals because of the ridiculous way they have handled their dealers this past year
4. I can always add a Pass x350.5 or an MBL 9007/8011 amp later after testing whether I need more than 200W of high current power that the MBL deploys.

So there you have it. Will post observations after the equipment gets here . Am particularly curious to compare the MBLs with the Summits with exactly the same equipment