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Rich said:
Does anyone really buy into the whole "parts no longer available" BS? I mean, come on. These speakers aren't exactly rocket science. But what is really telling is when they say their inventory control system indicates their remaining inventory of "specific proprietary parts" (for these ten different models of speakers) will all suddenly be depleted within the next three weeks (which also just happens to magically coincide with the end of the year). Does anyone really believe that?

They obviously made a cost decision as to which models they wanted to stop supporting first, and then tried to present it in the best light possible. Nice marketing spin, Justin. But it still doesn't hide the damage to ML's brand reputation that current management is inflicting with these types of decisions.
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Rich it isn't so much an issue of which parts may suddenly be depleted, but you're correct, it is a fundamental business decision I assure you. I'm confident because I'm doing the exact same thing right now in my business. It's a cash flow issue guys. E&O sitting on the books is stagnant money. It ties up your cash that could be spent on live production just so you can support (if your very lucky), a declining segment of your market. I can almost guarantee you that the folks at Martin Logan are simply looking after the bottom line as they head in their fiscal year end, and why shouldn't they, it's the smartest business decision. I'm looking to dump $200K of inventory at cost, or sell it off at scrap values because I can't keep enough of the parts I DO need on hand to satisfy the service levels my customers demand if I'm going to gain market share. By freeing that cash up I can hold more of the parts that I use in current production. I can get my newer (higher margin) products to my customers quicker and increase profitability for my comany and share holders (myself included). We're up 15% year over year and almost 5% over where we were in 2008, on our way to a record year in fact and leading our division in both EBT and Inventory Turns as a result.

I honestly believe that Martin Logan hates the thought of loosing or ****ing off it's customer base, but especially in these times, I think that they are more concerned with making the business profitable and successful.

Any of you that are in the private sector, anyone who makes a real product or provides a real service, answer this question honestly, do you fully support a product or service you provided 12-15 years ago? Can you really afford to do so without negative impact on your business?

I suspect that the honest answer is no.
 
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MiTT said:
...
Any of you that are in the private sector, anyone who makes a real product or provides a real service, answer this question honestly, do you fully support a product or service you provided 12-15 years ago? Can you really afford to do so without negative impact on your business?

I suspect that the honest answer is no.
Click to expand...

Can you afford to give your customers more than a 3 weeks notice?

Could you have afforded to tell your customers at a time other than the holidays?

Do you think customers would have been happier if the answer is yes?
 
I know we had a lot of these conversations a few months back. I can see both sides. But, I think Tim makes great points from a stand point of running a business.

But a good question is: What should a life of a speaker be? CLS 1 is from 1985! How many are there still out there? What are the costs and benefits or keeping up the support, which impacts the pricing of the current models, vs. ****ing off some of the current legacy owners?
 
Another thought on this is how many of the brands out there will be around in 10, 15, 20 years? I wish guys like Conrad, Johnson, Roger Sanders, Dave Wilson, etc., the best health and many years of vigorous and happy life.

But how many brands will be around 10, 15, or 20 years from now? The sad truth is not very many. Fortunately, Martin Logan will be. So will Soundlab. But most of the audio companies exist because of one talented designer. Once he is gone, you better find a competent DIY guy in your town if you want support...
 
David Matz said:
vs. ****ing off some of the current legacy owners?
Click to expand...

It's not about f***** ing off some customers. From a business point of view (at least), it is about maintaining integrity of your brand.

Maintaining resale value.
Maintaining desirability.
Maintaining honourability.

Sort of like manufacturing the Statement E2, it is a statement to show what the company stands for.

Is this a 2-bob Sony company, or is it a serious high-end contender. I think with this announcement ML have shifted decidedly to the wrong direction.
 
Peter_Klim said:
Can you afford to give your customers more than a 3 weeks notice?

Could you have afforded to tell your customers at a time other than the holidays?

Do you think customers would have been happier if the answer is yes?
Click to expand...


Solid points... while the apparent shift in ML's commitment to the entire product line is unfortunate and likely business/profit driven, they could have handled the "let down" with a bit more aplomb.

In my line of work (semiconductors), when we decide to discontinue a product, we go through an EOL process (End of Life). It involves creating a limited life-time-buy inventory so we don't leave customers in a lurch. It also involves formal notification of at least six months to allow customers to vector their own strategies accordingly. Yes, high-end speakers and semiconductors are pretty different beasts, but the essence of maintaining customer focus and "walking the walk" is critical to future repeat business. On this point, IMHO, ML could have managed the situation better.:duh:
 
While I agree that they could have had a more formal EOL, the fact is that they did tell folks here about 6 months ago that there would be certain products that they were going to cease supporting. It caused a $hit storm here then just as it is now. They did tell one of their most supportive and critical market segments (us), that this was coming, so none of us should be overly surprised. While everyone here is overcome with weeping and gnashing of teeth, the fact remains guys that we are pretty much the lunatic fringe of ML's overall customer base. 90% or more of the folks who buy Martin Logans get them home, hook them up to a cheap receiver with some high end Monster Cable (maybe), position them out of the way and never give them much thought otherwise.

Any successful company grows and survives on new product vitality. I'd be willing to bet that Martin Logan new product sales in one week are greater than revenue generated from legacy product support for the entire year on the products that are being identified here
 
I understand Tim's points about running a business with an eye to the bottom line in order to stay competitive and keep your fiscal balance in good order. But I do think there is a difference between a mass production company (like Sony or Bose or Philips lighting) and a true high-end audio company like Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, or Soundlabs. In order to maintain your reputation as a true high-end audio company, you have to accomplish certain things, in my opinion: 1. make stellar, quality, high end audio products, 2. provide unparalleled customer support, and 3. provide some support for your legacy models. I see Martin Logan giving ground in all of these areas.

People act like it is absolutely necessary for ML to take this step in order to survive in these "hard times." Sorry, but when so many high end companies are supporting all or most of their legacy models, I don't buy it. Again, look at SoundLabs, Magnepan, Sanders Sound, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, McIntosh, Quad, and so many others. These companies aren't going out of business due to the costs of maintaining customer support. Some of these models were being sold just fifteen years ago. When I buy a high end pair of speakers, I certainly expect that if the company is in business fifteen years from now then they are going to support their product!

And it isn't like ML has to keep every part in stock for all these legacy models. I fully expect that there is a modern equivalent made for most of the electrical components that could go bad (resistors, capacitors, woofers, etc) and these could be special-ordered by ML when someone needed them and the cost of that could be passed on to the person needing them. Yes, it might cost a little more, but the person would still be able to restore their beloved legacy speakers. And I still don't for a moment believe that a modern ML, with their multi-million dollar Paradigm factory, can't manage to manufacture panels for speakers that were handmade by Gayle's crew in a small shop in Kansas in the eighties and nineties. :rolleyes: Give me a break!

This is a management decision to look after the bottom line and focus on what they want to focus on, which appears to be leveraging the high end brand name of ML to sell low-fi home theater gear to the mass market and to cut the quality and increase the margins on the higher end gear to increase profits for the sake of their investors. That's the difference between a company that cares solely about the bottom line and one that is driven by and individual like Gayle Sanders who cared about so much more than just the bottom line.

Don't forget that the new CEO of Martin Logan, who has zero experience in the high end audio industry, listed on his resume as one of his chief qualities the ability to cut manufacturing costs. Well, he seems to be doing a stellar job of that, but at the cost of a high-end brand reputation of which he seems to have no clue.

Ultimately, all I'm saying is that Martin Logan is a different company now than it was when I bought most of my speakers from them. And that matters to me. So when I buy my next pair of speakers, I will have to take that into account and I will shop elsewhere. There are plenty of quality speakers out there made by companies that care about a little more than just their own balance sheet. I understand that not everyone will feel that way. To each his own.
 
Respond Justin to people!!!

Why does Justin use this forum for his own agenda and then never answer to his actions.He always comes here and uses it as his Martin Logan mouthpiece but refuses to reply to direct questions.Three weeks is not a long enough notice.Why can you not put a CLS II panel in a Monolith if they are the same dimensions.Take the jumpers off and simply run the panel full range which is what it was intended to do or still cross it over at 100hz?? What they should of done is said that parts and producton will end at the end of 2011.This would allow someone a full year to upgrade what they need.I choose to no longer support any Martin Logan product and will be selling everyting that I own.No arguments or BS just a plain fact.I wish everyone else good luck because your products will be obsolete it a few years also.
 
I'm listening guys and passing the information to our Service department. I'm just relaying the message as I'd promised to do months ago. When I got the info, I passed it right along to you, no "spin" or other agenda.

The cut off for ordering service for these panels is the 31st, but it may take up to 6 months to build/deliver them, so only a 50% deposit is required by the 31st. That's IF you need service parts.

If you have a question that you NEED answered, call or email our service department.

~J
 
Horchem1972 said:
Why does Justin use this forum for his own agenda and then never answer to his actions.He always comes here and uses it as his Martin Logan mouthpiece but refuses to reply to direct questions.
Click to expand...

Let's not shoot the messenger, guys. As an official ML rep, Justin has to ensure that what he says is as accurate as possible, and that might mean delays in answering direct questions while he seeks the correct answer and/or permission to post it.
 
Rich said:
I understand Tim's points about running a business with an eye to the bottom line in order to stay competitive and keep your fiscal balance in good order. But I do think there is a difference between a mass production company (like Sony or Bose or Philips lighting) and a true high-end audio company like Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, or Soundlabs. In order to maintain your reputation as a true high-end audio company, you have to accomplish certain things, in my opinion: 1. make stellar, quality, high end audio products, 2. provide unparalleled customer support, and 3. provide some support for your legacy models. I see Martin Logan giving ground in all of these areas.

People act like it is absolutely necessary for ML to take this step in order to survive in these "hard times." Sorry, but when so many high end companies are supporting all or most of their legacy models, I don't buy it. Again, look at SoundLabs, Magnepan, Sanders Sound, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, McIntosh, Quad, and so many others. These companies aren't going out of business due to the costs of maintaining customer support. Some of these models were being sold just fifteen years ago. When I buy a high end pair of speakers, I certainly expect that if the company is in business fifteen years from now then they are going to support their product!

And it isn't like ML has to keep every part in stock for all these legacy models. I fully expect that there is a modern equivalent made for most of the electrical components that could go bad (resistors, capacitors, woofers, etc) and these could be special-ordered by ML when someone needed them and the cost of that could be passed on to the person needing them. Yes, it might cost a little more, but the person would still be able to restore their beloved legacy speakers. And I still don't for a moment believe that a modern ML, with their multi-million dollar Paradigm factory, can't manage to manufacture panels for speakers that were handmade by Gayle's crew in a small shop in Kansas in the eighties and nineties. :rolleyes: Give me a break!

This is a management decision to look after the bottom line and focus on what they want to focus on, which appears to be leveraging the high end brand name of ML to sell low-fi home theater gear to the mass market and to cut the quality and increase the margins on the higher end gear to increase profits for the sake of their investors. That's the difference between a company that cares solely about the bottom line and one that is driven by and individual like Gayle Sanders who cared about so much more than just the bottom line.

Don't forget that the new CEO of Martin Logan, who has zero experience in the high end audio industry, listed on his resume as one of his chief qualities the ability to cut manufacturing costs. Well, he seems to be doing a stellar job of that, but at the cost of a high-end brand reputation of which he seems to have no clue.

Ultimately, all I'm saying is that Martin Logan is a different company now than it was when I bought most of my speakers from them. And that matters to me. So when I buy my next pair of speakers, I will have to take that into account and I will shop elsewhere. There are plenty of quality speakers out there made by companies that care about a little more than just their own balance sheet. I understand that not everyone will feel that way. To each his own.
Click to expand...

Rich, these are good points. The company decided that it's too expensive to change up their production line to produce a handful of panels here and there, for a relatively few very old speakers (probably less than 1,000 still in operation). Sure, it will lose a few customers, but that's the decision they made.

Other companies like CJ and ARC and Soundlab have different philosphies. But you pay for it. If you upgrade the panels and back plate electronics of a 1980's Soundlabs to current standard, you pay for it. And depending on the size of the operation the audio company is running, it slows down and raises costs for everyone. As you are well aware, there is no free lunch.
 
MiTT said:
While I agree that they could have had a more formal EOL, the fact is that they did tell folks here about 6 months ago that there would be certain products that they were going to cease supporting. It caused a $hit storm here then just as it is now. They did tell one of their most supportive and critical market segments (us), that this was coming, so none of us should be overly surprised. While everyone here is overcome with weeping and gnashing of teeth, the fact remains guys that we are pretty much the lunatic fringe of ML's overall customer base. 90% or more of the folks who buy Martin Logans get them home, hook them up to a cheap receiver with some high end Monster Cable (maybe), position them out of the way and never give them much thought otherwise.

Any successful company grows and survives on new product vitality. I'd be willing to bet that Martin Logan new product sales in one week are greater than revenue generated from legacy product support for the entire year on the products that are being identified here
Click to expand...

Tim - you're not getting it. well - all of it. I agree completely with your arguments that we are but a small part of the "big picture" in ML's current sales and future roadmap. I've been there, in private industry, and been the person at the table who said this is the decision we are going to make and it means that person will be out of work in 6 months. Those are hard decisions to make, certainly harder than dropping a speaker line, but decisions have to be made and guaranteed not everyone will agree with them.

So i agree, heck even support, the decision by ML to discontinue support for some models, be it earlier models, models that didn't sell or some other reason.

However.

How you do something, is much different than what you are doing but no less important. Certainly we were told 6 months back that certain products and lines would no longer be supported. but we were given no frame of time.

It was asked of ML how much warning would we be given, but those questions were unanswered save for comments that we would not be left out in the cold.


The time of "6 months" has been bandied about a lot - we were told 6 months back that products would end. and we have been told that it will be 6 months before production ends on these panels.

However.

The actual time frame is three weeks. We did NOT get a six month warning we got a three week warning. We were not told 6 months back that we would have "EOA at end of year" we were told EOA at end of month.

And while the production end is slated for 6 months down the line, that is irrelevant when ordering must happen in three weeks.


So the point being missed here is that we got a three week deadline in deference to vague assurances of being taken care of and in deference to requests for a time line or indication of how much warning we would receive.


Consider the situation that we'd be in if we had been told a full year back that EOA was coming, but in the end only received seven days warning would that have been better?

In the light of some of the arguments presented here this considered situation would be much better because a one year warning was given. However other points of view look at it in reality as being only one week of warning and thus a much worse situation.

The point is that it is irrelevant we were told 6 months back of the impending EOA and more relevant that the actual time limit was three weeks.
 
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David Matz said:
Other companies like CJ and ARC and Soundlab have different philosphies. But you pay for it.
Click to expand...

I understand that, David. And my point is that if I wanted to upgrade my legacy speakers rather than purchase new product, I would be willing to pay a premium to do so. Just as Justin was willing to pay Graz big bucks to restore his Apogees. For most audiophiles, it is worth the premium to restore their heirloom audio gear to like-new condition.

But the company telling me they no longer wish to support the products they sold just a few years ago leaves a sour taste in my mouth for that company. It tells me they no longer really care about their legacy and reputation in the high end community and that customer service is no longer one of their top priorities. That is not a company I am willing to spend a lot of money with.

Interestingly, although you make the point that everyone pays more for the "privilege" of a company supporting all its legacy products, the Maggie 20.1 and Sanders Sound Model 10 are both considerably less expensive than the CLX (and neither of them needs a subwoofer to go below 50 hz.). So I am not sure your point holds true.
 
Just a quick note here on time limits and warnings. I called about getting a new panel for my Logos and found out that there are NO parts available for the Logos. None.

so if you want to repanel your Logos, you are out of luck.

Warning time: ZERO days.
 
RichTeer said:
Let's not shoot the messenger, guys. As an official ML rep, Justin has to ensure that what he says is as accurate as possible, and that might mean delays in answering direct questions while he seeks the correct answer and/or permission to post it.
Click to expand...

He has no problems taking any accolades that come his way but delays when real questions are asked.He stated that sufficient warning would be given.I as many others do not consider a 3 week warning as such.Now Zaphod has found out that the warning is a lie.There are some models that are already discontinued without parts.When will the Justin spin machine come to an end.
 
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Horchem1972 said:
He has no problems taking any accolades that come his way but delays when real questions are asked.He stated that sufficient warning would be given.I as many others do not consider a 3 week warning as such.
Click to expand...

For the record, nor do I!

I do find it interesting Rich that you are the first one to bash Martin logan but defend them when someone else calls them out.You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth at times.
Click to expand...

I think you might be confusing me (RichTeer) with my namesake (Rich).
 
zaphod said:
Tim - you're not getting it. well - all of it. I agree completely with your arguments that we are but a small part of the "big picture" in ML's current sales and future roadmap. I've been there, in private industry, and been the person at the table who said this is the decision we are going to make and it means that person will be out of work in 6 months. Those are hard decisions to make, certainly harder than dropping a speaker line, but decisions have to be made and guaranteed not everyone will agree with them.

So i agree, heck even support, the decision by ML to discontinue support for some models, be it earlier models, models that didn't sell or some other reason.

However.

How you do something, is much different than what you are doing but no less important.
Click to expand...

Point well taken Lance. I don't disagree that there could have and likely should have been some more timely communication.

You guys do realize of course that Martin Logan isn't required to do any of this right?
 
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