Service Notice for Discontinued Products

Feltran said:

I'm assuming most people still using the models in this post haven't given Martin Logan much (if any) money in a very long time. They're probably at least as likely to buy new Martin Logans because their old ones can no longer be serviced than they would be otherwise.

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zaphod said:

Logos, pair of script, depth, another pair of script, another depth.

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Old (10 yeart+)
Sequel 2
ReQuest

New:
Stage
Fresco i
Replacement panels, woofers and power supply for Sequel 2

I'd rather fix my old ML than buy new ML.

MiTT said:

You know a few years ago you could have gone out a bought an absolutely state of the art speaker system called the Pipedream. Stunning piece of gear that I was fortunate to hear once. Today if something were to go wrong with your $100K set of Pipedreams you would be pretty much out of luck entirely. The company no longer exists. Same thing if you own a Sonic Frontiers or Golden Tube amp. Wadia, Theta, Levinson etc. almost all went by the wayside in recent years. I own a wonderful set of CLS IIz's, and sure I'd be disappointed if I couldn't get replacement panels for them. Before that day comes I'll evaluate if that makes sense for me and then decide whether to spend the coin or not. Someday when I can't get replacements any more I'll remember all the good times I enjoyed with my CLS's. Maybe I'll replace them with another set of Martin Logans, maybe I won't. I certainly won't feel betrayed by the company or like the world has ended. Time marches on folks.

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Very well said..........although logic does not always translate to those affected.

amey01 said:

1 + 1 are not adding up to 2 here.

"Can no longer purchase parts". Considering a Sequel I and Sequel II is virtually the same as a SL3, how can this be? If ML can purchase parts for the SL3, why not the Sequel II? Same goes for the CLS 1. Huh?

Same for the panels. A Sequel 2 panel is identical to a SL3/Ascent panel, is it not? How come no panel for Sequel 2, but not the Ascent i?

Also, the parts required for panels can always be purchased - all that is needed is sheet metal, mylar and glue. Why are these included?

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This doesn't make sense to me either.

On the list I saw Quest and Quest z, but no ReQuest. They're all interchangable.



BTW,
must be quite a coincidence, but without know this thread was here, I must have talked to Dana @ ML just a few hours after this thread was created, about replacing my panels (which sound fine now), since I read on these boards a while ago that they may be discontinued. He told me he that I shouldn't worry about the ReQuest panel's availability for at least a couple of years and that there has been no discussion of discontinuing their panels. I guess I know now why the number was so busy all day.

amey01 said:

And we'd be rightly upset if ML went out of business tomorrow also.

Some things can't be controlled.

ARC maintains a parts inventory for every single product they have manufactured.

That's the difference between a genuine high-end company and flash-in-the-pans. ARC is steeped in tradition, has a massive loyalty, a massive following and is one of the world's most successful high-end company. There's a reason for that. Of course, they're not for everyone. There are many factors involved.

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Even Radio Shack has parts for every audio product they sold (at least they did when i worked there during my college years 88-92)

JONERVI said:

Very well said..........although logic does not always translate to those affected.

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And Tim's point of availability isn't the only issue. it's also the amount of warning when we were assured that ML wouldn't plug the suddenly.

being told that availability is limited starting NOW is hardly warning.

The way I see it, most other speakers, or rather conventional speakers, don't have an issue of wear and tear where a unique hard to replace item like the ESL panels would be hard to replace.

These panels last an average of 15 years. Speakers from 1980 and before, as long as they were not abused, at the most, just need to have their surrounds replaced - this can easily be fixed by many establishments all over the USA. And many end users can fix it themselves too (after ordering the surrounds). And speakers just a little bit newer use rubber (butyl) so they should last way longer than 30 years.

Now more than ever, due to age, I would think ML would be selling more panels than ever and therefore increasing their profilts. By discontinuing their panels, I think - make that i "know" they wll be loosing customers. And the street price of used ML speakers will drop drastically, so us customers will have less ca$h when it's time to upgrade to new speakers. Who's going to want to buy used ML speakers if they ill be useless in a year or two? Even if they don't sound as good with the original parts, at least regular box spekaers can have any of it's components replaced, I bet, 50 years from now.

Martin Longan's are not your typlical speakers. I believe they are unique speakers using unconvential parts that makes them excel in sound reproduction. I also believe that their support should excel in the same manor.

By the way it looks the panels should still be available because like paneled speakers are still being serviced. But I agree with zaphod you would of thuoght they would of put this bulletin out October 1 or so, not three weeks before the end of the year.
All in all I think it weakens the brand. As amey01 was saying I considered ML to be in the same league as ARC in terms of customer service and parts availability that in itself had a value.
It changes the whole way you look at the speakers. Would you buy one of the discontinued models? Could you sell a pair to upgrade? Would you want to pay thousands of dollars for a new model knowing it too will become absolete in time?

I guess I'm more in Mitt's camp on this one... So I bought some speakers from a company that may go under, or in this case, appears to be veering off course a bit in terms of placing emphasis on the bottom line versus their loyal customers... eh, happens all the time.

While it's a tragic trend in this country (and in much of the world), and one could argue that prioritizing profit over long term customer satisfaction - aka misplaced greed - is one of the main catalysts of despair and poverty for the vast majority... it is nonetheless, however unsavory, the world we live in.

I won't restrict myself from buying incredible technology just because there's a chance it could be discontinued a decade or two down the line. And it helps (in my case) that I turn&burn through transducers at a decent clip - but regardless, everything you touch in this existence is temporary, some things more than others. So, relax and enjoy while you can. Make the most of the now, pour yourself a perfect martini with extra olives and let the Watermusic sooth your soul. :meditate:

MiTT said:

You know a few years ago you could have gone out a bought an absolutely state of the art speaker system called the Pipedream. Stunning piece of gear that I was fortunate to hear once. Today if something were to go wrong with your $100K set of Pipedreams you would be pretty much out of luck entirely. The company no longer exists. Same thing if you own a Sonic Frontiers or Golden Tube amp. Wadia, Theta, Levinson etc. almost all went by the wayside in recent years. I own a wonderful set of CLS IIz's, and sure I'd be disappointed if I couldn't get replacement panels for them. Before that day comes I'll evaluate if that makes sense for me and then decide whether to spend the coin or not. Someday when I can't get replacements any more I'll remember all the good times I enjoyed with my CLS's. Maybe I'll replace them with another set of Martin Logans, maybe I won't. I certainly won't feel betrayed by the company or like the world has ended. Time marches on folks.

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I think that is a bit different IMO.

If the company folds, then that is a tragic loss and clearly one doesn't buy a product with that happening in mind. That's like buying stock in a company that goes bankrupt.

The issue today is ML has changed their own playing field. They now say that their speakers have a end of life.

Would you be just as happy if this happened to your car?
Your central HVAC?

Imagine buying a Ferrari knowing that 15 years from now you can't fix it anymore? First of all, you wonder if the company is actually trying to keep the market it is selling to. 2nd of all, what do you think it does to resale value? Very different from buying a Hyundai.

That being said, I will say that if ML does a serious upgrade program (not peanuts) then that basically fixes the problem.

Well there are lots of cars whose new parts are no longer avaiable. Likewise HVAC. There are many manufacturers that no longer support old equipment. We had that happen to a very expensive Cray computer.

We were spoiled by the old ML just as many are by ARC, Magnepan, Sanders, etc. But someday all good things will end. INMHO its time to move on or find someone that can repair/modify our legacy equipment.

robertawillisjr said:

Well there are lots of cars whose new parts are no longer avaiable. Likewise HVAC. There are many manufacturers that no longer support old equipment. We had that happen to a very expensive Cray computer.

We were spoiled by the old ML just as many are by ARC, Magnepan, Sanders, etc. But someday all good things will end. INMHO its time to move on or find someone that can repair/modify our legacy equipment.

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I see what you're saying, but I guess I view the ML having a consumable part...the panel. Aka...no matter what you do, the panel is destined to die completely. This is not the case for the woofer and power supply.

It's like have a car that needs oil filters and nobody makes them anymore...so what do you do, throw away the car? Okay...not exactly a fair comparison.

To keep it in context...
Do you feel that woofers of a traditional speakers have a life with similar consequences to a ML panel?

shakham said:

I see what you're saying, but I guess I view the ML having a consumable part...the panel. Aka...no matter what you do, the panel is destined to die completely. This is not the case for the woofer and power supply.

It's like have a car that needs oil filters and nobody makes them anymore...so what do you do, throw away the car? Okay...not exactly a fair comparison.

To keep it in context...
Do you feel that woofers of a traditional speakers have a life with similar consequences to a ML panel?

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I think that the car comparison is fair. The OEM's do not continue to make parts for many of their cars. The aftermarket, however, quite often picks up the slack if it is profitable to do so. That can be the same situation here.

Well I think it is a bit rude to give such short notice at this time of year when they knew full well that this was in the pipeline. Kind of a "Merry Xmas - f*** you!".

On the other hand, at least they have told us rather than let owners discover it themselves the hard way.

Someone probably will step into to provide spares. It's easily possible to supply better than the original parts, I would think. Another area is to offer upgrade kits for the older models - turbo charge your old Logans on the cheap, so to speak.

I'm pretty positive the older Logans could be made better - much better than perhaps you would think - by the judicious replacement of various bits including the panels.

Maybe Rodger Sanders could so something? I'd assume ML would let him... but maybe I'm wrong?

Didn't someone post once that they sent their panels out somewhere, not to ML, to get them recoated and that they worked just as good as new? And the cost to get it done was much cheaper than purchasing new panels?

What that place's phone number?

robertawillisjr said:

Well there are lots of cars whose new parts are no longer avaiable. Likewise HVAC. There are many manufacturers that no longer support old equipment. We had that happen to a very expensive Cray computer.

We were spoiled by the old ML just as many are by ARC, Magnepan, Sanders, etc. But someday all good things will end. INMHO its time to move on or find someone that can repair/modify our legacy equipment.

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But Robert - the cars and air conditioners of which you speak are commodity items.

I wouldn't expect Sony to support a old stereo system or TV either. Actually, ideally I would - but it is not the way our consumerist, disposable world of planned obsolescence, "throw it away and buy a new one" commercial domination works.

But;

When people go beyond what is "normal" [you'd hardly call ML speakers normal, right?] - and extend themselves to buy specialist and/or high-end and/or the very best of something it is not unfair to expect a reciprocal "beyond the normal" from the manufacturer.

I just spoke to the service dept at the Martin Logan factory, the good news is -

CLS IIZ PANELS ARE STILL IN PRODUCTION AND WON'T GO OUT OF PRODUCTION FOR AT LEAST ANOTHER 10 OR SO YEARS FROM NOW

Just thought some of you might like to know this.

Peter_Klim said:

Didn't someone post once that they sent their panels out somewhere, not to ML, to get them recoated and that they worked just as good as new? And the cost to get it done was much cheaper than purchasing new panels?

What that place's phone number?

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i know that "Just Real Music" in Ohio does this sort of thing, but i know not about the quality/skill. he also makes his own 'stats that are remarkably Logan-like.

Dan Osib said:

I just spoke to the service dept at the Martin Logan factory, the good news is -

CLS IIZ PANELS ARE STILL IN PRODUCTION AND WON'T GO OUT OF PRODUCTION FOR AT LEAST ANOTHER 10 OR SO YEARS FROM NOW

Just thought some of you might like to know this.

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Yes - and as I said, 1+1 is not adding up to 2 here. I'm not stupid. My BS detector is going off.

If ML have discontinued service to the CLS 1 because of - and I use the Service Department's exact words - "Due to lack of availability of specific proprietary parts and raw materials", why then are they able to continue production of CLS IIz panels for - and again I use specific words - "at least 10 years"!

Therefore, "lack of availability of specific proprietary parts and raw materials" is not the correct reason why support has been dropped.

So - where does that leave us?

That's not a rhetorical question - can we please get an answer to the true reason why support is being dropped?

The panels are the concern here because they are a disposable/consumable part. The rest of it is not such a biggie.

i remember Jim Power telling me that indeed the panels are different between the I and the II and were not interchangable. does that mean that the raw materials are different or that the electrical characteristics are different as a result of how the same raw materials are assembled and configured. i don't know.

Does anyone really buy into the whole "parts no longer available" BS? I mean, come on. These speakers aren't exactly rocket science. But what is really telling is when they say their inventory control system indicates their remaining inventory of "specific proprietary parts" (for these ten different models of speakers) will all suddenly be depleted within the next three weeks (which also just happens to magically coincide with the end of the year). Does anyone really believe that?

They obviously made a cost decision as to which models they wanted to stop supporting first, and then tried to present it in the best light possible. Nice marketing spin, Justin. But it still doesn't hide the damage to ML's brand reputation that current management is inflicting with these types of decisions.