Vista bass drivers fried again! What's wrong?

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MrBT

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It has been about five months since my first bass drivers replacement and it looks like I'm going have to do it again.
First time I blew them, when driven with my ignorance, just out of curiosity pushed "unity gain" on my new BAT preamp. About 1000W of pure power went through speakers for a few seconds. Panels seemed to have no problems with such a load but bass drivers membranes almost jumped out of the cages. Ok, my fault.
Since than I've never reached unreasonable volume levels but today I've noticed familiar sounding buzzing coming out of bass drivers. OMG, Again!
But why?
In my small listening room reaching hi volume levels is not a problem and I do not think I ever reached 400W (according to specs of vistas). Measured peaks at 97db, small room 200sf and about 8ft from speakers. Assuming 90db vista sensitivity and listening distance to reach even 100db I would use only fraction of amp power.
Power amps I'm using are monoblocks Musical Fidelity 750K with massive reserves of power, Krell KAV-280p and Marantz SA-11S1.

Somebody can explain me what is wrong, or maybe I'm missing something?

Thanks
 
MrBT said:
It has been about five months since my first bass drivers replacement and it looks like I'm going have to do it again.
First time I blew them, when driven with my ignorance, just out of curiosity pushed "unity gain" on my new BAT preamp. About 1000W of pure power went through speakers for a few seconds. Panels seemed to have no problems with such a load but bass drivers membranes almost jumped out of the cages. Ok, my fault.
Since than I've never reached unreasonable volume levels but today I've noticed familiar sounding buzzing coming out of bass drivers. OMG, Again!
But why?
In my small listening room reaching hi volume levels is not a problem and I do not think I ever reached 400W (according to specs of vistas). Measured peaks at 97db, small room 200sf and about 8ft from speakers. Assuming 90db vista sensitivity and listening distance to reach even 100db I would use only fraction of amp power.
Power amps I'm using are monoblocks Musical Fidelity 750K with massive reserves of power, Krell KAV-280p and Marantz SA-11S1.

Somebody can explain me what is wrong, or maybe I'm missing something?

Thanks
Click to expand...

All I can say is "are you sure"? They shouldn't cause any problems unless they have been abused.

On the other hand, after the first bit of abuse, were they replaced or repaired. If they were repaired, you might have had a dodgy job?
 
amey01,
All I can say is "I'm pretty sure" :) May be I got carried away, while listening, when my glass of whiskey got empty.

Drivers were ordered from ML but they did not look NEW.

Some time ago I played with db meters and even tryed to reach ears bleading volume levels as some people claim live concert can produce (about 110db) but this was even before my first bass failure and everything was OK. Although I can say that this time I played bass intensive song but, again, not reaching unreasonable volume levels (certainly no more than 100db peaks).
 
MrBT said:
amey01,
All I can say is "I'm pretty sure" :) May be I got carried away, while listening, when my glass of whiskey got empty.

Drivers were ordered from ML but they did not look NEW.

Some time ago I played with db meters and even tryed to reach ears bleading volume levels as some people claim live concert can produce (about 110db) but this was even before my first bass failure and everything was OK. Although I can say that this time I played bass intensive song but, again, not reaching unreasonable volume levels (certainly no more than 100db peaks).
Click to expand...
The only way to burn a speaker is, too much volume, clipping the amplifier, producing DC at the speaker terminals, or bad power amplifier. DC is what makes the coil to burn. Usually is abuse... this problem is not usual. There is no way to burn a speaker's woofer unless you apply DC or too much power to handle. The Vistas can take up to 200 RMS Watts with no problem. Re-check idle current in your amp.
Happy listening,
Roberto.
 
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The quickest way to a blown woofer is ampifier distortion.You need to cross them over at around 80-100hz to achieve the volume you are trying to achieve.No Martin logan speaker will play at 110db full range.They are not designed for that kind of abuse.If you are blowing multiple woofers,you are simply distorting the signal or playing them too loud with a full range signal.Try crossing them over to 80-100hz and augment the lower bass with a subwoofer to achieve the loud SPL's.
 
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roberto: checking idle current would require to dissemble enclosure, which in this design is not a simple thing. Also it's under warranty and I do not want to risk loosing it.

Horchem1972: I'm not trying to listen at 110db. It was just one time experiment and it played great, without distortion but simply way to loud. My usual listening loudness is between 90-100db peaks. I do not feel like I've been abusing them. May be I'm wrong and do not know how loud is too loud. :)
 
MrBT said:
roberto: checking idle current would require to dissemble enclosure, which in this design is not a simple thing. Also it's under warranty and I do not want to risk loosing it.

Horchem1972: I'm not trying to listen at 110db. It was just one time experiment and it played great, without distortion but simply way to loud. My usual listening loudness is between 90-100db peaks. I do not feel like I've been abusing them. May be I'm wrong and do not know how loud is too loud. :)
Click to expand...

For the price of a set of ML ESLs they should play that loud. Thats like buying an expensive sports car that you can drive too fast...give me a break.
 
Jimna said:
For the price of a set of ML ESLs they should play that loud. Thats like buying an expensive sports car that you can drive too fast...give me a break.
Click to expand...
Hardly!

An expensive sports car is designed to go fast.

If you want LOUD then get Cerwin Vega.
if you want finesse, get ML.
 
JRace said:
Hardly!

An expensive sports car is designed to go fast.

If you want LOUD then get Cerwin Vega.
if you want finesse, get ML.
Click to expand...

Very well said.

Cerwin Vega model CLS-215 with 2 x 15 inch woffers and a power handling of 500 watts per channel. LOUD is what you get for about $1000 per pair.

If you want the ability to go loud and have finesse there are ML CLX's.
 
Yes, CLX is one time expence of $20k. Replacing vista woofers evey half a year will cost me $30 a month :). I think I stick with that.
 
Hi BT,

Based on what you've posted, my sense is that you are over driving the bass drivers if the material you are playing contains significant low bass energy.

DB measurements may be an indicator but bare in mind that the meter is reading the overall loudness level, which may or may not be indicative of the amount of lower bass energy you are trying to "push" through the bass drivers.

GG

PS: FWIW, I blew two SL3 bass drivers over a six year period. The cause was excessive volume. You may be listening at a volume that will result in permanent ear damage. With my current system (and yes I do occasionally listen to Dire Straits, Pink Floyd, Peter Gabriel, etc. although my main interest is classical and jazz), I rarely exceed peak 95DB levels. Typical average level is the mid to upper 80's.

And I totally disagree with Jimna's comments regarding price / volume levels. One of the most venerable and still respected speakers ever manufactured is the Quad, which has always had volume limitations, even in its current iteration.

If you want a "head banger" speaker, you should probably look elsewhere.
 
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ML Vista doesn't have powered woofer? Anyway 8" woofer has a hard task getting any real sound pressure at low frequencies. You would be better of with a model with at least 10" powered woofers or get some subwoofer(s) and cut some lowest ones from your Vistas.
 
Are you using that supercharger with an amplifier? You may have some sort of mismatch that is adding low frequency distortion. As stated below this a main reason woofers blow (that and too much power).

Also older recording also may have low frequency distortions produced by deteriorated tapes, splicing and bad remastering.

Face it, your speakers aren't designed for your use. See if you can find a pair of Prodigies or some speaker that is more robust for your use.
 
MrBT said:
roberto: checking idle current would require to dissemble enclosure, which in this design is not a simple thing. Also it's under warranty and I do not want to risk loosing it.

Horchem1972: I'm not trying to listen at 110db. It was just one time experiment and it played great, without distortion but simply way to loud. My usual listening loudness is between 90-100db peaks. I do not feel like I've been abusing them. May be I'm wrong and do not know how loud is too loud. :)
Click to expand...

Instead of buying woofer after woofer,why not use a sub to augment the lower bass info.No 8" driver will be able to play low bass passages at 100db on a long term basis.You will achieve much greater bass clarity by not asking such little woofers to do a subs job.Have you used an SPL meter to measure the output levels on the lower passages.If not,you may be playing them louder than you think.
 
Thank you all for your help.

It looks like I've been playing too loud. I'll recheck the SPL of lower register later on but as far as I recall it was something like +3 to +5 db from avarage in that range.

If I decide to go with subwoofer, how on earth would I be able to cut vista woofers at lets say 120Hz?
 
I believe some subs have a high-pass filter built in, not sure if the ML's do?

My prior speaker was the Vista and I ran them 80Hz and up through my external electronic crossover (Pass XVR-1). My JL sub handles 80Hz and below. The higher crossover point will free up the Vista to play a little louder. I rarely listened at 100+ dB if ever though.

You can find a used two way Marchand crossover on Agon sometimes for around $350-400.
 
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