Do you get what you pay for?

I attended the recent California Audio Show and was amazed at how poor the sound was--in general. I had not attended an audio show before, but have read reports from shows in the usual magazines. Now I understand why you often read in these report "Brand X was on display but was not being demoed".

The typical system at the show (CD Player, preamp, amp, speakers, cables) retailed for about $20,000. The cheapest I heard was about $4,000 (Chinese tubes with cloned B&W towers) and the Legacy room system was about $100,000. I'd say that I heard three systems that sounded good, 20 systems that were tolerable, and five that made me leave the room before the demo track finished. Of course the rooms were hotel rooms, not sound rooms at high end audio stores. Most of rooms had extensive acoustic treatments. Stereo effects were almost entirely absent.

When I got home I fired up a humble system--Marantz CD63SE straight in to a Berning EA-230, and original CLS. Needless to say this 25 year old setup would put nearly all the systems I heard to shame in any regard other than low frequency extension. I happen to like the CLS bass, but I realize some people hear it as "one note bass".

Do high end audio buyers "get what they pay for"?

As an experiment I swapped my son's Polk mini monitors for the CLS--everything else remained constant. The stereo effect was astonishing, the frequency response was similar to the CLS, the detail and transparency was compromised--but those little Polks were more musical than half the systems we heard at the show.

I have not heard Magenpan's MMG that go for $595/pair. I have not heard the CLX for $20,000+. I have heard the Wilson MAXX 3 for $68,000 and am happy to report that they sound like CLS but with stunning low frequency content. For now I am thinking that high end audio buyers get what they get, not necessarily what they pay for.

I think there are many factors at play:

- your mood
- the atmosphere of the show
- the sound you are psychologically used to
- the bad rooms (50% of sound quality)
- poor electricity in the hotel
- setup
- forced synergy based on equipment/ dealer availability
- etc...

Good audio is like wine. Is a $250 bottle better than a $20 bottle? or a $6 bottle? To those used to higher level, yes. To those looking to get drunk on anything - no.

However, as a cls owner, if you heard a well setup clx system, you will be blown away

It depends on what you bought, how good you've set it up, how good your room is and how good your software is.

Even with industry discounts, I've spent a solid six figures on my system and I couldn't be happier. I feel that it's worth every penny, but it's taken a very long time to get to this point.

I know I couldn't move my system to a hotel room, and I never expect that out of the mfrs. either. I see the shows as a way to meet the people that make the gear and see the stuff in person.

I've heard enough of the components we've reviewed over the last six years at shows and it rarely comes close to what their gear is capable of. Considering how much stuff gets damaged by the freight guys, I'm always amazed that it even works.

David Matz said:

I think there are many factors at play:

- your mood
- the atmosphere of the show
- the sound you are psychologically used to
- the bad rooms (50% of sound quality)
- poor electricity in the hotel
- setup
- forced synergy based on equipment/ dealer availability
- etc...

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I'd also add to that your position in the room. You're not often in the sweet spot exactly, are you?

I also think what you are used to is a major factor. Not just the psychology, but also the fact that quite simply - you tune your system to your preference. You're not only used to a particuar sound, but you darn well tune it to be that way!

I will attest to the setup of equipment. since my recent setup overhaul I have made incredible gains in all facets of performance. my system sounded good before.. most regular people thought great... now it sounds great to me and great to regular people. the more tuned your ear is the more critical you become.

I havent heard a store setup that beats what I got here at home in my humble system. but then I took a long time setting up.

tonepub said:

It depends on what you bought, how good you've set it up, how good your room is and how good your software is.

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Jeff nailed it (once again).
The comment that the Wilson Maxx 3s sounded like the CLS with great bass, absolutely blew my mind. When set up in a proper environment, the Maxx's are simply unbelievably good and in my opinion, in a totally different league than the CLS. Don't get me wrong, I have heard some terrific CLS based systems at members homes. But, I do think you get even more from speaker systems like the Maxx.

slowGEEZR said:

Jeff nailed it (once again).
The comment that the Wilson Maxx 3s sounded like the CLS with great bass, absolutely blew my mind. When set up in a proper environment, the Maxx's are simply unbelievably good and in my opinion, in a totally different league than the CLS. Don't get me wrong, I have heard some terrific CLS based systems at members homes. But, I do think you get even more from speaker systems like the Maxx.

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I still think its mostly subjective and what you like is what you like! I had an opportunity to hear the Wilson Maxx set-up by Peter McGrath (sp) in a dedicated listening room and was totally shocked at how unemotional they sounded. When I got home to listen to my Summits, I was much more involved in the music than the megabuck system.

MDSPHOTO said:

I still think its mostly subjective and what you like is what you like! I had an opportunity to hear the Wilson Maxx set-up by Peter McGrath (sp) in a dedicated listening room and was totally shocked at how unemotional they sounded. When I got home to listen to my Summits, I was much more involved in the music than the megabuck system.

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I think we sometimes discount how a system makes us feel... Playing the same reference tracks over and over while moving speakers a mm at a time is one way this hobby manifests itself. Some focus on that aspect of audio. In this case the music can become secondary and is just one of several tools for tweaking setup. There was a time when I had precisely located tape strips on the floor, marked with reference notes to myself. I no longer do that and over time have come to better enjoy the music. I see a parallel to computer "gamers" some of whom spend their time benchmarking the overclockability and frame rates achieved by their PC and less time using it for the (presumably) intended purpose. There's no right or wrong, but tweaking and listening to music are two different hobbies, I think.
...j

There is one more factor - the music itself. If I listen to music I dislike on any system, no matter how good it is or set up well, it will cloud my opinion of the system.

As one of the guys above said, there is a difference between tweaking and listening to music. I agree with that completely.

BTW I am reminded about a time I was at an audio store, critically listening to a system with another guy, and his wife asked, "Do you not like the system?". I responded, "It's really good. Why do you ask?". And she said, "Because you are so serious". In my critical listening I forgot to enjoy the music!

MDSPHOTO said:

I still think its mostly subjective and what you like is what you like!

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I totally agree. That's what makes all the differences in opinions fascinating to me.

Though I'm not a terribly big fan of Wilson, they are a very resolving speaker, just like the CLX and when that's what you're dealing with, the speakers will only reflect the room and what's behind them. And much like an ultra high performance car like a Ferrari, is much more revealing of setup. Put a lousy set of tires on a Camry and it doesn't make all that much difference in the experience, but a finely tuned performance car will easily reveal the tire pressure being off.

I've heard the Wilson's (and the CLX) sound fantastic and terrible, just depends on the setup. A good friend of mine from Focal told me that he's heard the (180k a pair) Grand Utopia EM's in ten different setups and it was a completely different speaker every time.

So it's really tough to judge a top line speaker by what you heard at a hifi show. That's why on a lot of levels I think these things do as much harm as good for the consumer.

I find for myself having attended many audio shows that when I find a room with electrostatic speakers I enjoy the sound 100 times over a conventional box speaker.

For example at a show I attended 2 years ago a manufacturer was displaying his tube amps and pre's with SL3 Martin Logans. The sound was fantastic and put to shame many, many of those ultra high buck systems IMHO.

I have heard the Wilson Maxx's set up by Peter Mc Grath also and they didn't do anything for me. Having had the pleasure to hear the Martin Logan Statements was the ultimate listening experience for me, something I shall never forget. In hind sight , if I had known then that was probably the one and only time I would hear the statements, I would have sat there all day long!!

Somtimes, one get's more than what one paid for! On a whim, I purchased some 1987 Polk SDA-SRS2 "monoliths" for $100.00. I've pretty much sworn off tweeters but these after an upgrade sound very nice. I've about $300 worth of upgrades done and haven't done the crossovers yet. These were about a $2500 dollar pair in 87, so today would probably be about $4500? My limit for upgrades is $2K so I should have a 6.5K speakers for about $2100. They are not as resolving and airy as my Spires are, but the imaging and stage is quite pleasing.

On the other hand, all my front end gear has been a pleasure to me and it sounds the way I like it to. The gear sounded much better in my house than the store where I listened to it. The store only gave me a hint of what it was capable of, so a show would probably be along the same lines. I don't think anybody should discount low, medium or high end gear based on price alone. I am really surpised how well these "cheap" speakers sound when paired with nice front end gear.

Gordon

Gordon said:

My limit for upgrades is $2K so I should have a 6.5K speakers for about $2100. They are not as resolving and airy as my Spires are, but the imaging and stage is quite pleasing.
Gordon

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Gordon, I'm curious (not being critical at all): if these speakers are not as good as your Spires, why are you considering spending all that money on upgrades instead of using the money to upgrade your system instead? Of course, if you are building a second system that is another matter entirely.

Good question Bernard! I'm done rolling pieces in and out of my rig. I'm very happy with the McIntosh sound. I'm doing the speakers in order to learn what makes a good speaker a good speaker. I use the Spire as my benchmark and compare the upgrade to that. I'm learning about the different grades of caps, resistors, inductors and drivers. I can now see why Wilson and other higher end companies can charge such prices based on component prices. Some caps are $3 and some are $3K.

It is more of a learning experience vice a replacement effort. Who know's I may stumble upon something that I could do the Spire, although I doubt it!

Gordon

I attend CES in Vegas every year and spend a couple days in the high end audio. I would not generally make a buying recomendation based on what I hear in the halls of the Venetian. Some, such as the TAD presentation are very good (Andrew Jones always brings great demo music). Others are just for looking. If I used my CES excursions to pick my gear I would not be wearing Prodigys.

CES isn't really set up to demo gear to consumers, it's a business show. The mfrs try to get some semblance of sound, but it's really to talk to their dealers, distributors and the press.

In the old days, they didn't let the general public in and it really wasn't meant to be a big hifi shop.

I can attribute this to 3 things, from my experience.

1. Room is paramount.
2. Music choice affects emotional connection.
3. Personal biases with regards to sonic presentation correlates with one's opinion.