Price for new panels (Request, Odyssey)

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Of course I have no data, but I suspect that ML sells not too many sets of replacement panels for the CLS at $1575 per set. Given that a set of CLS with good panels is worth maybe $800 resale, spending $1575 for a new set isn't exactly economically sensible. On the other hand I probably would spend $600 + $75 shipping to have my panels rebuilt. As someone who has built ESL panels from scratch, I find the nylon coated CLS stators to be nicely made and eminently recyclable. The cost of rebuilding is very small. Why ML chooses scrapping old panels versus rebuilding I do not know.

Purchasing the CLS speaker as an investment isn't a good idea at this time. If you purchase a set of CLS speakers, I would think that you are infatuated with the way they sound and plan to keep them for some time.

You can't buy a comparable speaker for $800 (more like $1500) + $1575. The closest large panel ESL that you can buy is the Prince (China) speaker and it is significantly higher (please do the research).
 
And that point is not to be taken lightly. The CLS speakers were first manufactured in 1985 -- that's twenty-five years ago, a quarter of a century. There is no guarantee they will continue to support these models, as they have made clear. So if they do, I don't think it is unreasonable to charge a good markup on the cost of the panels to make it worth their hassle. The older the speaker, the more markup I would consider to be reasonable.



No, you are taking someone else's reasoning in an out-of-context example and trying to apply it to my situation. First of all, JBeede was the one who said 30% would be a reasonable cost to him. I made no comment on whether that was a reasonable percentage in my own mind. I simply showed him that if he used inflation-adjusted numbers, that he was paying 30% of the original cost of his speakers in today's dollars. My point being that you can't expect ML to charge prices based on 1985 numbers as if there had been no inflation in the meantime. That is not reasonable.

Second, his example refers to speakers that are twenty-five years old and a panel type and technology that ML hasn't produced for many years. I would expect a much larger markup on a replacement panel like that than one that is from the current generation of speakers.

To put your example in the proper context of my reasoning: I purchased my Summits new in 2007 for $10,000. If my Summit panels needed replacing in two years (after the warranty runs out), I would expect to pay a lot less for replacement panels than if they needed replacing in 2029. By the time they are twenty-five years old, I might expect to pay $6,000 for a new set of panels (that's 30% of the cost of them new, adjusted for 25 years of inflation). That would not seem unreasonable to me at that time.



I call out people for blindly supporting the company in the face of facts which indicate that support is unwarranted. Likewise, I call out people when the facts show they unfairly criticize ML because of their own unreasonable expectations of what the company should do, as in this case. I don't see that as a double standard. I see it as using facts, reason, and honest analysis to come to your conclusions on a given topic, rather than blind faith or blind skepticism.

The electrostat panel is the primary component of an electrostatic speaker. It is the only speaker driver in a CLS speaker. To pretend that you should be able to get a replacement for it twenty-five years later, for a mere 15% to 30% of the cost of the original speaker, is just absurd in my mind.

Please feel free to point out any flaws in my logic.

I appreciate your thoughtful comments. My thoughts: Though I referred to my CLS as "antiques" I meant that purely from an age point of view--not to suggest that they have nostalgic value. Even though I have owned them for many years I view them as music "appliances". In my case the appliance is in need of some repair. For $675 I would certainly make the basic repair. $1575 for new panels without updating/validating the rest of the CLS system sounds risky. Of course ML can set their prices as they see fit. They seem to offer very fair prices for replacement panels for the hybrid systems. I do not view $1575 for a set of CLS replacement panels as doing me any favors.

I doubt ML views the replacement panels as a revenue generator. I do suspect that recent increases in replacement panel pricing and rumors of failed panels across product lines may indicate that the ratio of replacement to retail panels being manufactured has grown. This is speculation. I assume that manufacturing replacement panels consumes retail panel capacity. Why would ML raise prices on replacements? There are several possibilities: Rich suggests that ML desires to end-of-life mature technology. It could be that they want to reserve manufacturing capacity for retail panels. Maybe they wish to encourage upgrades versus repair. In any case, I doubt that revenue from replacement panel sales is the motivation.

I am still thinking through the "today's dollars" argument. Is it sensible to pay time adjusted dollars to restore 1985 performance? I am still cogitating on that one. Certainly vintage car owners pay 2010 dollars for NOS or reproduced parts--but that is solely due to nostalgic value. My CLS are appliances and the only thing that matters is their fitness for their intended purpose. Sentimental ML owners admittedly have a different mid set. In which case their (presumed) willingness to pay the going (increasing) rate encourages me to apply my $1575 to Magneplanar 1.7 I guess (never heard them).

Regarding product design and maturity... Having built ESL panels and interfaces as a hobbyist, it is my opinion that the CLS panels are not significantly different--in terms of manufacturability or manufacturing demands--than the replacement panels being offered at very agreeable prices for the hybrid models. The notion that year of manufacture weighs heavily on the pricing of replacement panels seems arbitrary to me. Of course ML is free to set pricing as they see fit. It would be nice to know that there is some science behind the pricing.

Rich, I hope that your disagreeable sounding tone is a misread on my part. I have not meant to be "critical" or to "complain" about ML or their product. I am simply trying to understand their pricing. Frankly I find it somewhat remarkable that a high voltage system subject to electro migration and corona dispersion even functions after 25 years! Bravo ML. Let's keep in mind, after all, we are talking about music systems paid for with disposable income that could have sustained a village in Haiti for weeks.
 
The CLS were $2500 when they came out in 1985. In today's dollars, that amounts to $4,900 dollars.

Very interesting. And the CLX Anniv. cost approx 5 times as much. Something seems a little wrong somewhere...:D
 
Very interesting. And the CLX Anniv. cost approx 5 times as much. Something seems a little wrong somewhere...:D

Good point. If I owned CLX I would certainly keep an eye out for wrinkles or failing tape around the time that the warranty expires. 32% of MSRP for a replacement set of panels would be a bitter pill to swallow!

van den Hul gladly reuses my EMT body to remanufacture and update my pickup. I'd like for ML--or someone--to reuse my curved stators (the only component in the panels that have significant value or cost) and reload them with the current mylar, current coating, current tape and current spacers.

I paid $90 for the last Quad ESL-57 bass panel I bought (a while ago). I need to check in with the guys in Virginia to see what a rebuild goes for these days.
 
Very interesting. And the CLX Anniv. cost approx 5 times as much. Something seems a little wrong somewhere...:D

Consider: The CLS was only the second speaker produced by a small unknown manufacturer during a time when Hi Fi was mostly pretty affordable. The CLX is the reference-level product made by one of the best-known electrostatic speaker manufacturers in the world at a time when high end Hi Fi products command huge bucks. It contains all-new technology in the bass panel that took ML years to perfect, as well as some new crossover technology. And compared to some of the competition, it seems downright cheap.

But is the actual sound and the quality worth five times as much as what the CLS sold for (in today's dollars) compared to that original speaker? I can't answer that since it is completely subjective and I haven't heard them. I'm guessing probably not. This is most likely more a statement about how much more of our disposable income we are willing to throw toward Hi Fi products these days compared to a quarter century ago.
 
Whilst I have heard the CLX and think it's pretty damned good, I'd love to hear the CLS IIz in top condition against the CLX, to hear exactly where the notional $20K extra is justified. Jeff did a review in Tonepub that "revisited" the CLS that was an interesting read, I seem to remember.

Consider this though. We assume the dual force technology cost a lot to innovate, but did it really? I wonder precisely how much was spent on R&D to produce it. I guess we'll never know, but perhaps it wasn't that hard. It isn't rocket science - it's two bits of mylar instead of one. OK they have produced different sized panels in the DF section and fine tuning that probably took some effort too. But if Mr Sanders can single handely come up with the goods, at least for a quality hybrid, it can't be that difficult to obtain decent ESL performance. DF just takes things a little further, but it is just a crying shame it doesn't manage lower frequency output better than it does.

In terms of material cost, the 5x price isn't justified. That's a no brainer. Indeed, placing a hand on top of a CLX and gently rocking it reveals how little material there really is in the speaker. It's a lightweight, no question.

Indeed, if it isn't the flagship product when the Statement E3 is released :)D), would they reduce the price? I think not. So the flagship product point is probably misleading.

At the end of the day, though, it's a quality speaker, and you're going to find it tough to get anything significantly better sonically in a new retail product - assuming, that is, you like the speaker as much as I did (do).
 
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Whilst I have heard the CLX and think it's pretty damned good, I'd love to hear the CLS IIz in top condition against the CLX, to hear exactly where the notional $20K extra is justified. Jeff did a review in Tonepub that "revisited" the CLS that was an interesting read, I seem to remember.

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Ask Ken Scollick about a CLS properly set up against a CLX. He was looking for a pair until the CLX was a NO BRAINIER on price. Yes the CLX has some better bass but thats not all the ice cream in the cone. The CLS can do bass but not as high DB. I have made some people ashamed that they paid for what they did. CLS when done right are absolutely fantastic. Its just a royal PITA to get the right amps and room set up.
 
Don't forget basic economics in your financial decision making

Not that fairness is not important - it is very important. IF ML raises the prices too much it will **** off its loyal and rabid customer, which it doesn't want to do. (Home Depot does not want to raise prices for lumber too high after a hurricane either.) However, historical costs really don't matter for financial decision making (but they hint at the fairness aspect).

The original poster is trying to figure out whether it makes sense to invest $900 for new panels. If he does, he has a well-functioning speaker he likes. If he doesn't, he can sell his speaker as salvage for pennies, and spend nearly $1.5K-$2.5k on a similar speaker.

Also, smart companies price their speakers (or anything) on value, not on cost. 25 years ago, the cls was valued at $3,500 by those who bought it new. Today a well functioning one is still valued by the market as such. A used clx is valued at $15K or so, and a new one at $23K. Comparing a used CLS to a used CLX, this means customers are willing to pay over $10K for the CLX for improved bass response and improvements in "see throughness transparency" many have complained about. It is what it is.
 
There was a recent article in which the CLX was compared to the reviewer's "memory" of how his CLS' sounded. When I find it, I'll post the link.
 
i was quoted $275 to have my odyssey panels rebuilt with a smoked mylar from a guy that has been doing it for 20+ years. I opted to buy new panels from ML for $900 and will eventually send my old panels to get redone so i can have some spares :)

Keep us posted on what happens with the 3rd party rebuilder that you mentioned. $275 to rebuild a pair of ML panels sounds like a win-win for you and the rebuilder--assuming he can properly re-tension the diaphragms and provide some sort of performance data to show that the panels are matched to each other and to the originals in terms of frequency response and sensitivity.
...j
 
Keep us posted on what happens with the 3rd party rebuilder that you mentioned. $275 to rebuild a pair of ML panels sounds like a win-win for you and the rebuilder--assuming he can properly re-tension the diaphragms and provide some sort of performance data to show that the panels are matched to each other and to the originals in terms of frequency response and sensitivity.
...j

I ended up washing one of the ReQuest stators to see if there is any difference... No diff at all or I am simply def. There is a definite difference between ReQuests and Scripts....

So my next step was to buy Odysseys :) and there is a difference I can hear. Odysseys sound more similar to Scripts... They sound more lightweight, more compact yet with a nice punch to them. So far I have them side by side :) and I think I will keep ReQuests as rear speakers, while selling Scripts :)


Regards,

Greg
 
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