I hate to say it but :- Where the heck is the new (Reserve Series) centre speaker?

Please forgive my bad typing today but im struggling with a new PDA:-

OK to set the scene: - am a long term ML fan and currently run Prodigy Fronts and 2 pairs of Ascent i's as Mids/Rears - This is my 4th ML system and I'm delighted with the sound but I need a centre speaker which can keep up effortlessly in a large room. Am currently running a 'Phantom' centre.

I've tried a Theatre-i in the room for several months but lost patience with its vertical (yes vertical) distribution pattern - its fine for either a seated position or a standing position but never both - and I regularly use the system both ways.

I demo'd a Stage which sounded a little better (especially for its size) - but it still fell far behind the sound of a full size ML floorstander.

So come on ML - where on Earth is your proper flagship centre speaker? How can you give us the euphoria of owning your 'Reserve ESL' series (like the mighty CLX i'm saving for) but torture us with a compromised centre speaker 1/7th the size and price?

Ideally some variant of CLX-Centre would be best IMO but i'll take a hybrid if it'll sing as well as a Summit-X... and I'd pay for the honour.

ML should remember that as big LCD and Plasma displays have grown in recent years the space 'allowable' for a centre also grows - Wilson's new monster 'Polaris' centre is a good example of this growth. ML take note!

JayJayHache

You need to look up the special center speaker Jon Fo made under the DIY section

I too asked that same question of ML a couple of months ago. The answer was that there was no planned center channel to mate with the CLX.

I wish that were not the case as the current plan although pricey is to buy another set of CLXs and split them up with Jonfo so we can both have a REAL CLX center channel.

Hello,
I totally understand. While I own a Stage CC, it replaced a Cinema i and the difference in size is microscopic. That being said, I have been impressed with the SPL's the little guy puts out. While similar in size to the Cinema i, it honestly does sound better.

JJH, you really might want to consider going with a Odyssey or Prodigy behind a Perforated Screen for your CC. Unless Jon Fo strikes a deal with ML to build something similar to his SL3 based CC.

Given that most of the recent energy and direction of ML has been going perpendicular to releasing a Flagship CC, I really think a Front PJ Setup with Prodigy/Odyssey will be the only solution to what you really want.
Cheers,
JJ

repman said:

You need to look up the special center speaker Jon Fo made under the DIY section

Click to expand...

Thanks for the pointer! Sounds interesting will do that

I have a front projector set up using a Lumis with a screen which drops 10cm in front of a wall mounted LCD screen - but I am at the widest zoom setting on a T2 lens so switching to an acoustically transparent screen would therefor require a reduction in screen size...

JayJayHache

I am running a stage between a pair of summits right now and think it is actually pretty good. It seems to fill the entire middle very well and the speaker level settings ended up at the same level as the summits, so SPL output is good. I don't notice much at all as far as vertical dispersion issues. My Cinema, on other hand, is way behind.

JayJayHache said:

Thanks for the pointer! Sounds interesting will do that

I have a front projector set up using a Lumis with a screen which drops 10cm in front of a wall mounted LCD screen - but I am at the widest zoom setting on a T2 lens so switching to an acoustically transparent screen would therefor require a reduction in screen size...

JayJayHache

Click to expand...

Hello,
In this instance, I would think the juice is worth the squeeze. While you would lose some Screen Size, you would gain exactly what you are seeking in your Center Channel.
Cheers,
JJ

Jungle Jack said:

Hello,
In this instance, I would think the juice is worth the squeeze. While you would lose some Screen Size, you would gain exactly what you are seeking in your Center Channel.
Cheers,
JJ

Click to expand...

Hmm, quite a dilema from my perspective... Expensive and less attractive but it would fix the sound problem...

Does anyone have any experience in using a larger ML behind an AT screen? There are some new screen fabrics out which make good claims regarding equilisation and sound transfer but I'd love some end user feedback:- Does it alter the sound of a 'stat in any important way?

JayJayHache

JayJayHache said:

Hmm, quite a dilema from my perspective... Expensive and less attractive but it would fix the sound problem...

Does anyone have any experience in using a larger ML behind an AT screen? There are some new screen fabrics out which make good claims regarding equilisation and sound transfer but I'd love some end user feedback:- Does it alter the sound of a 'stat in any important way?

JayJayHache

Click to expand...

Hi JayJay, well, since I do have an AT screen and a LARGE center , maybe I can help answer this.

Yes, the new fabrics from Stewart and ScreenPix2 are very good.

In any case, I recommend use of a room corrector like Audyssey, which makes any residual impact of an AT screen completely irrelevant.

My CC and L/R mate seamlessly and multichannel audio is a revelation on this rig.

JonFo said:

My CC and L/R mate seamlessly and multichannel audio is a revelation on this rig.

Click to expand...

Well that's exactly what I'm looking for - the latest screens *claim* not to need any EQ to correct for their AT properties - but that's a touch claim IMO...

Thanks for the feedback JonFo...

I remember reading that Gale Saunders tried his ML Theartre behind a Stewart Perf screen for his original Statements E2 setup - but abandoning it soon after as he didn't like the effect the screen had on the sound even with correction (???) and then deciding to put the CC below the screen - am wondering what he'd think of these new fabrics.

COME ON ML! None of this would be necessary if you'd produce a proper flagship CC!

JayJayHache said:

COME ON ML! None of this would be necessary if you'd produce a proper flagship CC!

Click to expand...

The problem with this idea is that they would likely not have the sales to justify the expense of designing and producing one. I seriously doubt they sell that many CLX overall, and especially compared to their other models. And I imagine that the majority of those sold are employed in dedicated two-channel systems. I doubt there are very many CLX's deployed in multichannel systems.

So you are basically asking them to invest a ton of money to produce a "flagship" center channel to mate with the CLX, when they may only sell a few dozen at the most. It simply isn't cost-effective for them to do that.

For all their other speakers, the Stage mates just fine as a center channel.

Rich said:

So you are basically asking them to invest a ton of money to produce a "flagship" center channel to mate with the CLX, when they may only sell a few dozen at the most

Click to expand...

Nope!
ML have 5 models in their current 'Reserve' range (CLX, Summet, Spire, Ethos etc.) and have always had flagship floorsanders - they sell (literally) THOUSANDS of pairs a year... I'm running Prodigy not CLX and the soundstage is ENORMOUS. This is the sound I'm looking to match seamlessly.

I've no problem with ML making money on a matching CC - they will just need to price it correctly! I'm not after a free lunch...

I'd expect to pay no more than 6k to 9k ideally - but it'd have to sound *perfect* at that price.

JayJayHache

JayJayHache said:

Nope!
ML have 5 models in their current 'Reserve' range (CLX, Summet, Spire, Ethos etc.) and have always had flagship floorsanders - they sell (literally) THOUSANDS of pairs a year... I'm running Prodigy not CLX and the soundstage is ENORMOUS. This is the sound I'm looking to match seamlessly.

I've no problem with ML making money on a matching CC - they will just need to price it correctly! I'm not after a free lunch...

I'd expect to pay no more than 6k to 9k ideally - but it'd have to sound *perfect* at that price.

JayJayHache

Click to expand...

If you are running Prodigy, then you have a "flagship" center channel from that generation. It is called the Theater. Surely you don't expect ML to put out a new flagship center channel specifically to match up with a ten year old model? The newer gen. models have a very different sound than the older gen., and the newer gen. center channels are designed to match that sound. The Stage matches quite well with every one of their current reserve series speakers, save the CLX. So I still don't see what the problem is, from ML's perspective.

If you are looking to match the sound of the Prodigy seamlessly, your only real option is to purchase another pair of Prodigy and stick one of them in the center (or perhaps another pair of Ascent i's), as discussed earlier in the thread. Or perhaps you could install two Theater i's, one above and one below your screen, to deal with the vertical dispersion limitations you were referring to in your first post.

I seriously doubt ML is going to produce anything much bigger than the Stage at this point. It just would not be cost effective for them to produce a big center channel costing $6000 or more. I can't imagine they could sell enough to justify the cost of development. I expect the majority of owners of the newer gen. reserve series are going to be quite happy with the Stage and not be willing to fork over twice as much money for a bigger CC. I know I wouldn't. The Stage matches perfectly with my Summits, and anything larger wouldn't fit well in my application.

By the way, I'm not criticizing you for wishing. I understand your frustration. You're not the first to wish for a more seamless multichannel experience from the old gen. models. I just don't think what you are asking ML to do is practical from an economic standpoint. And even if they did it, I don't think it would match tonally with your older gen. models.

JayJay, there is one option outside of DIY that you might consider:

Buy five Stages. Stack them on a custom rack that allows a couple of degrees of aiming for each unit (in case you need to cover a front row with a slightly angled lower unit.

It will require one bit of modification to the units: you will need to 'power-shade' the tweeters so the center units tweeter is full volume, and the ones furthest away are about 6dB down relative to it.

I'd have to experiment with a stack like this, but it would make a very good match if correctly tuned.

This will give you a roughly 5' line source that will mate nicely with even a CLX.

Not cheap, but easy to do.

Center Channel for Large M-L's

JayJayHache said:

Please forgive my bad typing today but im struggling with a new PDA:-

OK to set the scene: - am a long term ML fan and currently run Prodigy Fronts and 2 pairs of Ascent i's as Mids/Rears - This is my 4th ML system and I'm delighted with the sound but I need a centre speaker which can keep up effortlessly in a large room. Am currently running a 'Phantom' centre.

I've tried a Theatre-i in the room for several months but lost patience with its vertical (yes vertical) distribution pattern - its fine for either a seated position or a standing position but never both - and I regularly use the system both ways.

I demo'd a Stage which sounded a little better (especially for its size) - but it still fell far behind the sound of a full size ML floorstander.

So come on ML - where on Earth is your proper flagship centre speaker? How can you give us the euphoria of owning your 'Reserve ESL' series (like the mighty CLX i'm saving for) but torture us with a compromised centre speaker 1/7th the size and price?

Ideally some variant of CLX-Centre would be best IMO but i'll take a hybrid if it'll sing as well as a Summit-X... and I'd pay for the honour.

ML should remember that as big LCD and Plasma displays have grown in recent years the space 'allowable' for a centre also grows - Wilson's new monster 'Polaris' centre is a good example of this growth. ML take note!

JayJayHache

Click to expand...

I have been running a Stage CC for my CLX's for the past year. Originally was mated with Summits. While not entirely ideal for the larger speakers, I have used the EQ with my Lexicon surround processor which has really helped with the blend of these speakers. I have found that center channel matching is very dependent on the source material which varies considerably be it broadcast or DVD. While a larger CC might have been a better match, it would produce problems for those with large flat screens or projection video set ups.

Rich said:

If you are running Prodigy, then you have a "flagship" center channel from that generation. It is called the Theater.

Click to expand...

Yes that's the one i've tried for several months (Well a Theatre i in my case) - it has a far larger ES panel than the Stage.

Nobody would suggest that ML should develop a flagship CC to match the sound of the prodigy or any legacy ML - I'd want them to use their latest and best panel technology to match their current or next gen Fronts...

Putting a 'Stack' of speakers together is a facinating thought which I suggested to an ML engineer once at a trade show - he suggested that it would introduce some very peculiar side effects that wouldn't be wanted

I think i'll have to face the fact that an AT screen in front of an ML floorstander is the best (but expensive) way forward...

Perhaps ML could consider selling single speakers?

JayJayHahce