RE: Possible purchase of Prodigys

RE: Possible purchase of Prodigys

I have a system that up to a month ago consisted of Mark Levinson 333 amp driving a set of Apogee Duetta Signatures, along with a pair of Vandersteen 2Ce's. Knowing the Apogees inability to do deep bass, I also had a pair of Vandersteen 2W subwoofers (one powered, one not).

Enticed by the heat that the Levinson gave off, my cat decided to sit on it, and urinated into the unit, frying the amp and causing anywhere from $2,600 to $4,000 of damage.

At first, I was looking to replace it with another 333 or a 335 or 336. After turning over a number of rocks, and coming up empty, I began to consider other options.

The store where I buy most of my gear has been selling a pair of Prodigys, about nine years old for consignment at $4,700, and knowing the few amps that can reliably handle the Apogees, I was thinking to replace the Apogees with the Prodigys to offer me significantly more options on the amplifier end. To drive the Prodigys, I've had it suggested to me to get a Classe CA-2200, which would still come with a full five-year warranty.

Figuring the bass performance of the Prodigys, I was thinking of selling the unpowered Vandersteen 2W, and keeping the powered one, with the thought of running the Prodigys, the 2Ces and the powered 2W off the Classe, by also selling the Aragon 8002 (that had just been running the two subwoofers).

I got an e-mail from Classe, though, to tell me that the amp can't handle reliably both the Vandersteens and the Prodigy, so I guess I'll be left with keeping the Aragon to drive the 2Ces and the subwoofer.

In the end, I would be spending about $9K on the Prodigys and Classe amp, and getting about $2,200 or $2,300 in return for the Apogees and the one Vandersteen subwoofer.

If I were to replace just the amp, and get another Levinson amp, I'd be looking at $3,500 to $4,000 likely to do that, so the difference we're talking about is $2,700.

So for those who have had experience with Prodigy speakers, would such a change of the system be worth it in the end?

Thoughts?

acaamano said:

I have a system that up to a month ago consisted of Mark Levinson 333 amp driving a set of Apogee Duetta Signatures, along with a pair of Vandersteen 2Ce's. Knowing the Apogees inability to do deep bass, I also had a pair of Vandersteen 2W subwoofers (one powered, one not).

Enticed by the heat that the Levinson gave off, my cat decided to sit on it, and urinated into the unit, frying the amp and causing anywhere from $2,600 to $4,000 of damage.

At first, I was looking to replace it with another 333 or a 335 or 336. After turning over a number of rocks, and coming up empty, I began to consider other options.

The store where I buy most of my gear has been selling a pair of Prodigys, about nine years old for consignment at $4,700, and knowing the few amps that can reliably handle the Apogees, I was thinking to replace the Apogees with the Prodigys to offer me significantly more options on the amplifier end. To drive the Prodigys, I've had it suggested to me to get a Classe CA-2200, which would still come with a full five-year warranty.

Figuring the bass performance of the Prodigys, I was thinking of selling the unpowered Vandersteen 2W, and keeping the powered one, with the thought of running the Prodigys, the 2Ces and the powered 2W off the Classe, by also selling the Aragon 8002 (that had just been running the two subwoofers).

I got an e-mail from Classe, though, to tell me that the amp can't handle reliably both the Vandersteens and the Prodigy, so I guess I'll be left with keeping the Aragon to drive the 2Ces and the subwoofer.

In the end, I would be spending about $9K on the Prodigys and Classe amp, and getting about $2,200 or $2,300 in return for the Apogees and the one Vandersteen subwoofer.

If I were to replace just the amp, and get another Levinson amp, I'd be looking at $3,500 to $4,000 likely to do that, so the difference we're talking about is $2,700.

So for those who have had experience with Prodigy speakers, would such a change of the system be worth it in the end?

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Well - I am sure justing (user211) will have something to say on this topic. He has some rebuilt apogees. I like the Prodigys - but know you can get them for less on audiogon...and I would not consider them a 'bass heavy' type of speaker. So, if you are looking for a 'rock your socks off' type of speaker -I don't think it would be the Prodigy... Now, soundstage/midrange/overall nice tonal balance - that is how I would describe them...

First off, the Prodigy's are an amazing speaker. Have you considered selling both subs plus the aragon and purchase the set of Classe cam 400 monoblocks off audiogon. That would really make those prodigy's sing.

Cheers, Greg

RE: Prodigy purchase?

To Timm:

I had checked Audiogon, and I saw a pair of Prodigys, with Mahogany (which I really don't care about) selling for $4,900.

The only reason I qualified Prodigys as "bass heavy" was in comparison to the Apogee Duetta Signatures. By themselves, I think they are a very balanced speaker, and have thought that was a "dream" speaker of mine, and am wondering if this is the time to grab a hold of it.

I'm not looking for a "rock your socks off" speaker, as my music tastes range from Genesis, Yes, Journey down to Josh Groban and Taylor Swift.

Hope that helps.

I imagine even larger amps, like the CAM400s, could make the Prodigys "sing," but I'd be singing to a much higher octave after spending the $7,800 on those, combined with the $4,700 for the Prodigys once my wife was kicking me between the legs....I don't know if you can really quantify spending potentially $9K on new gear as being on a "budget," but in contrast to the pairing of the CAM-400s and the Prodigys, I guess it does.

Timm was right. I'll say a few things, I guess.

1) The ProdsD) should have more scale than the Duettas due to the height, but not the width.

2) The Prods only hit 28Hz which the Duetta will match for all intents and purposes. I know, I've been banging test tones and taking FR curves on mine.

3) All Duettas that haven't had a bass and MRT ribbon change will be pretty much knackered by now, in all honesty. So, have your Duettas ever had a ribbon change? If not, you're not really listening to a pair of Duettas.

4) I hardly ever use my Descent with the Duettas. Others seem to feel the need for a sub with them, and if you really do need copious amounts of low bass, then you should still need a sub with the Prodigies, by the rational it goes no lower, really. Indeed, I just raised a "bass" thread to try and find some material that justifies keeping the Descent. For the most part, when it's on, it just seems to overload the room. Other people I have dem'd it agree. Smallish room, though - the story may change in a big one.

5) I personally prefer the seemlessness of the Apogees to any ML hybrid I have heard, as the bass goes low without having to crossover with a cone at around 250Hz ish. Don't underestimate the worth of that. I also love the sound of the DS bass. It is excellent, in my view.

6) If you want more scale, $7500 buys you some Divas on Audiogon, refurbed by True Sound Works. Granted, probably not as nicely done as mine, but without finding out the spec, I can't be sure of that.

7) The Duetta Sig is 86DB and 4 Ohms flat. It is a medium difficult to drive speaker. I've had Rowland 301s driving them, and I still prefer my 80 Watt 211 monos for sound quality. An Apogee Scintilla, however, is a very hard to drive speaker. I doubt the Prodigy will be much easier to drive than the DS - sensitivity ratings published by ML have been shown in the UK press to be optimistic, and the impedance varies radically over the frequency range.

8) A Duetta's FR will be flatter than a Prodigy.

Bear in mind point 3) - very important. Also, why not demo the Prodigy if the store is close? Check the panel age, but that is no guarantee they are still fine. Listen first.

I've tried to be subjective here, but obviously I am biased. But bear in mind I owned MLs for 20 years. And I think the Apogees are better speakers. Prodigys will still be awesome, however

I suppose the "like for like" Apogee comparison with the Prodigy would be the Diva, really.

acaamano said:

To Timm:

I had checked Audiogon, and I saw a pair of Prodigys, with Mahogany (which I really don't care about) selling for $4,900.

The only reason I qualified Prodigys as "bass heavy" was in comparison to the Apogee Duetta Signatures. By themselves, I think they are a very balanced speaker, and have thought that was a "dream" speaker of mine, and am wondering if this is the time to grab a hold of it.

I'm not looking for a "rock your socks off" speaker, as my music tastes range from Genesis, Yes, Journey down to Josh Groban and Taylor Swift.

Hope that helps.

I imagine even larger amps, like the CAM400s, could make the Prodigys "sing," but I'd be singing to a much higher octave after spending the $7,800 on those, combined with the $4,700 for the Prodigys once my wife was kicking me between the legs....I don't know if you can really quantify spending potentially $9K on new gear as being on a "budget," but in contrast to the pairing of the CAM-400s and the Prodigys, I guess it does.

Click to expand...

I know that Mark Levinson hesitates to give quotes for repairs. But I would try that. The 333 is probably the match for the discussed alternates. Then sell the rest of you speakers and get the Prodigy OR for a bit more get Spires.

From the posts on this forum the Spire and Prodigy (although different) are relatively equal. I mentioned the Spires because it is likely that the Prodigy panels require replacement.

Oh and keep the cat out of the room. Cat hair gets into everything.

RE: Prodigy purchase?

Last night, I took about an hour to listen to the Prodigys, along with the CA-2200, in a system that included a Classe preamp and CD player that I am not in the market for, as I'm content with my Krell KRC-3 preamp and Wadia CD player.

After the hour, while I was very impressed with the solid bass that the Prodigys reproduced on songs with plenty of bass, or the detailed highs on songs immersed with that sort of detail, I was surprised to hear a lack of detail when I was listening to complex songs with a mix of highs and lows. The end result was a desire to take home the CA-2200 and put that to the test in my current system and see what I thought of it as the only change. After about an hour and a half, I found myself more impressed with using the amp with my Duetta Signatures, as my Aragon powered only my 2Ce's, as I hadn't linked up the 2Ws in the rush to listen to at least most of my system.

The salesperson, when I talked about my concerns about the Prodigys cited that their placement in the room (largely in the center) was necessary to reproduce most of the bass, and therefore might have lost some of the detail that I might have been expecting on some songs.

But as much as I thought I might have made up my mind in some respect (buying just the Classe CA-2200), vibrations I had begun to hear from one of my Duetta Signatures a few months ago (one that was repaired by ADS in 1996 when the bass panel was damaged when I stupidly tried to install the feet while sitting down) I began to notice again last night with when listening to the CA-2200, and the cost to replace the foam makes me wonder if it's time for changing those speakers as well.

If I'm going to re-listen to the Prodigys, what suggestions does anyone have to try to get the most of the Prodigys to get the best overall sound from them?

Your experience could well have been due to the room OR the condition of the panels. Remember that you are buying 9 year old speakers.

Best of luck.

To robertawillisjr:

I definitely think the room played a part in my issues with the Prodigys as the damping that the room is loaded with, my room at home has none of that.

When you say "condition of the panels," I guess I would think that getting a pair of speakers that have nine-year old panels would be going in the right direction, versus the speakers that I myself have owned for 15, and are likely about 20 years old.

Also, what sort of maintenance do ML panels require? The salesperson cited only needing to vaccuum with a brush-ended hose every six months as what would be needed and not much else.

Thanks for the input.

If the speakers are nine years old, you need to get really close to the panels and ensure that both panels produce sound at the same level. Then ensure that the sound on each panel is uniform from top to bottom (vertically). If there are problems you should get the owner to replace the panels.

Remember the speakers are nine years old and they are asking a premium price.

Panel care:

• 
  Vacuum at least once monthly. The speakers should be disconnected from power sources for at least overnight.
  No smoking or pets in the listening room if possible (this is true for all electronics that are not hermetically sealed.
  Humidity and direct sun light should be avoided.

As far as the dealer's room. Tell him to set them up properly. You could also ask him to allow you to audition them at home (good luck lugging them around).

RE: Prodigy purchase?

Dear robertawillisjr:

It's interesting you mention the speakers producing "sound at the same level." When I first sat in the chair that was specifically placed in the center between the two speakers, it looked as if the two speakers were toed in identically. But when I listened, I found the left speaker to be noticeably stronger, to where I found myself shifting my chair to the right a few inches, to which I found little difference, as the left channel continued to be the stronger of the two. The salesperson then went ahead and played with the placement of the right speaker, to which I noticed some improvement, but still could tell the left channel still coming across stronger.

From the sounds of it, I should give a closer listening to it, standing next to the speaker and listening to segments of each of the panels to get the sense that there isn't a differentiation between the sound output from either panel.

The care of the panels don't seem that out of the world, between the vacuuming, keeping the humidity down and avoiding direct sunlight. I don't smoke, but since the listening room is more than just a listening room, as it's also the TV room and an office, my wife won't stand for it to be a room to always keep the cat out. We keep her out when we aren't in the room, but keeping her out when we're in the room, is a tough task. Prior to the Levinson incident, I thought that she was going to ruin my netting on my Apogees, but she never laid a nail on them. On my Vandersteen 2Ces, she did in her first year try to claw at the wrap, but after we put a scratching post in the room, that hasn't been a problem since.

I know that a listening session at home would be the most ideal to listen to the Logans, but without a personal group of muscle guys who can carry those speakers to and from the house, I figure the only way I'll listen to them at home is after I purchase them.

As I suspected - get the Duettas re-done and you'll be blown away... Graz's ribbons better the originals. Also, if you can manage it, get the crossovers re-done, with modern caps, inductors and resistors - and possibly an external x-over if the caps of choice won't fit.

Also, the Prods may well be a bit knackered too.

It's a difficult world. Planars in good nick cost money, I am afraid. No escaping it.

The Aps will cost more to re-do as the bass panels must be fitted by a trained installer. That's life, I'm afraid, but I think you'll find it worth it. Give True Sound Works a call.

acaamano said:

Dear robertawillisjr:

I found the left speaker to be noticeably stronger, to where I found myself shifting my chair to the right a few inches, to which I found little difference, as the left channel continued to be the stronger of the two. The salesperson then went ahead and played with the placement of the right speaker, to which I noticed some improvement, but still could tell the left channel still coming across stronger.

Click to expand...

I experienced this on some Prodigy's a few years ago when I brought them home. Using a sound meter I discovered one speaker to be about 5db down on the other no matter what inputs I reversed. The dealer replaced the panels and they were fine after that. I would say that the speakers need new panels.

RE: Prodigy purchase?

To Neil H:

In your experience, the panels were replaced by the dealer. With these being on consignment, I wonder how much in addition I would have to spend to have the Prodigys with new panels. I plan for another listening session tonight, and I wonder if I'll notice the same issues as I did in the previous one.

acaamano said:

To Neil H:

In your experience, the panels were replaced by the dealer. With these being on consignment, I wonder how much in addition I would have to spend to have the Prodigys with new panels. I plan for another listening session tonight, and I wonder if I'll notice the same issues as I did in the previous one.

Click to expand...

Recently the prices for Odysseys and Prodigys have jumped considerable. In fact, with a bit of a stretch you could find a used Summits or Spires.

If the panels require replacement, I would have the owner replace them or lower the price by $1k.

Duetta's

Of all the speakers I have had owned over the years, the only ones I was sorry I sold were the Appogee Duetta Signatures.
I had them from 1989 to 1996, after I sold them I went through B&W 801 mk3, Dunlavy 4, Merlin's, Maggie 3.6R, Acoustic Zen Adagios, Spires (and a few that I probably forgot).

I never could get the level of satifaction from any of these speakers that the Duetta's provided.

I had them biamped using a Bryson electronic crossover, with a muscle (Bryson) amp for the bass and small quality amp for the top end.

I still miss them....and I think you will too!

I would keep them around until you are then happy with the replacements, then sell the Duetta Sig.'s

wings said:

I would keep them around until you are then happy with the replacements, then sell the Duetta Sig.'s

Click to expand...

Very wise. Finding something significantly better isn't going to be easy... at least without spending a lot of money.

RE: Prodigy purchase?

Last night listened to the Prodigys for a second time, and evidently the positioning of the Prodigys is so finicky that a little adjustment in the angle, while also a lot of clutter was cleaned out of the listening room from the first time I listened, and I found the issue where I thought that maybe there was a problem with one of the speakers to be no more.

Even with that "solved," I still found the upper ends of the Prodigys to be lacking in an area that I've been accustomed to with my Apogees, the timbre of the cymbals, or the upper notes on a keyboard for example. The bass was very evident, and the midrange I found to be very lively. If I was to need one set of speakers with nothing else to compliment them, then I would probably go with the Prodigys, even at their higher expense to the Apogees. But with my combination of the Vandersteen 2Ces to help a little more with the mids and some of the bass, and my two 2Ws to handle much of the lower end, I find that I will almost be certainly be making the one purchase (that of the Classe CA-2200) and leave it at that.

I think also having slowly built my system over the years at increments of no larger than $3,000 at a time, spnending slightly more than $4K is a tough enough pill to swallow, let alone going into the $9K range.

Thanks for all the advice from all corners on my issues with figuring out what direction I was going to go.