View Poll Results: How Long Did Your ML ESL Panels Last?

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  • 1-2 years

    0 0%
  • 3-4 years

    1 1.59%
  • 5-6 years

    7 11.11%
  • 7-8 years

    10 15.87%
  • 9-10 years

    5 7.94%
  • 11-12 years

    3 4.76%
  • 13-14 years

    10 15.87%
  • 15-16 years

    7 11.11%
  • 17-18 years

    5 7.94%
  • 19 years +

    16 25.40%
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Thread: How Long Have Your ML Panels Actually Lasted?

  1. #31
    Super User Rich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by westoz View Post
    What I find interesting is peoples acceptance of the loss of conductivity as a given, and little negativity towards ML's poor and inadequate application of the coating- all the other stat manufacturers have it sorted, why not ML?
    I just paid $900 for replacement panels so I feel the pain, but I'm also ****ed off.
    It's called fanboyism, and it seems to be pretty rampant on this forum. Any critical opinion of MartinLogan's business practices is quickly drowned out with heaps of scorn by those who would rather put their head in the sand than take a hard look at the facts.
     
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by User211 View Post
    timm - read the whole thread
    Justin I did read the whole thread. I figured you were trying to get an idea of the quality control on these panels but you have not made a space for those without problems. Having both would give a more accurate picture. I am interested as well in these results but to only include problem panels in the result set skews your research.

  3. #33
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    Sorry just saw your 'sister thread' response. I Just thought having the same number of categories with as an example a 1-5 year problem option with a 1-5 year 'no problem' option would give you a more accurate picture. Then continue those options in 5 yr increments.

  4. #34
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    Can I ask exactly what goes "bad" on the panel to warrant replacing? Tape becomes dislodged, coating issues other?

  5. #35
    Senior Member MPS's Avatar
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    Panels do fail for various reasons:
    - membrane loses conductivity (coating failure)
    - excess panel leak current (panel contamination due to impurities)
    - panel disintegration (due to mechanical failure)
    There are other problems concerning HV circuitry but they are not panel related and do not require panel replacement.

    Excellent thread btw, there is no absolute measure as when a panel is to be replaced. Then again this thread will give good presentation of when people experience the need to replace panels. Large variations are to be expected due to differences in operating environment. Dust, grease, smoke, humidity, extreme temperatures, UV all are enemies of our beloved panels.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MPS View Post

    Excellent thread btw, there is no absolute measure as when a panel is to be replaced. Then again this thread will give good presentation of when people experience the need to replace panels. Large variations are to be expected due to differences in operating environment. Dust, grease, smoke, humidity, extreme temperatures, UV all are enemies of our beloved panels.
    I respectfully disagree with you here... The reason is that the result set as I said in my previous post is skewed to find 'problems' and ignores anyone that has had 'no problems' - which gives you no real indication of the failure rate. Note: we have 12 respondants right now. That tells you nothing. If we had 100 responses - the results are still compromised and would indicate that there is a 100% failure rate on the panels. If the 'no failure' data is included with the 'failure' data - then you have a clearer picture of the quality - or failure rate of the panels.

  7. #37
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    I respectfully disagree with you disagreeing! :-)

    IMO - While the data provided is a subset of the complete picture and does not include ML owners who may have never seen a problem, it does in and of itself reveal interesting information in regard to the "Failed MLs" category-only. And while the sample size might not be optimal, I doubt you will get sample data in the 100s to ascertain a high enough confidence level to quantifiably assess anything.

  8. #38
    Senior Member MPS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timm View Post
    I respectfully disagree with you here... The reason is that the result set as I said in my previous post is skewed to find 'problems' and ignores anyone that has had 'no problems' - which gives you no real indication of the failure rate. Note: we have 12 respondants right now. That tells you nothing. If we had 100 responses - the results are still compromised and would indicate that there is a 100% failure rate on the panels. If the 'no failure' data is included with the 'failure' data - then you have a clearer picture of the quality - or failure rate of the panels.
    Well I get your point but I still feel this thread serves it's purpose. I'm quite happy to see some units still operating after 19+ years. Construction and manufacturing process has been improved over the years (ie clear spars). There is also personal requirements to consider, what might be acceptable panel performance for one person might be way unacceptable for another one.
    Maybe there should be a thread covering current panel age statistics to add to information available from this poll.

  9. #39
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    Yeah - nothing against Justin - or any of you guys -- Just trying to see if there is a way to improve the statistics that we get out of this... 12 respondants is not enough to have any conclusion - and I'm too dang lazy to put a poll together!! There has been a lot of discussion about the quality of the panels - and all of you know that if you google anything on the net for 'mercedes benz problems' or 'ferrari problems' - you will get a bunch of people that have in fact had issues... But, is that a true reflection of the quality of the product? Well, I am hoping you see the analogy. I was hoping this thread - as opposed to being something like that - could be something that was a representation of people with both positive and negative experiences with panel life.

    I know the 'respectfully disagree' comment can come off as pompous - but it is not meant that way..

  10. #40
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    To be honest, I was just waiting until we had a few more responses before raisng the "sister thread". The response has been pretty underwhelming, and the forum in general seems fairly inactive at the moment - it goes through phases of activity/inactivity.

    It is just possible many don't hang on to MLs for long enough to provide accurate data. Who knows. Whatever. Disappointing response in terms of feedback, however you look at it.

  11. #41
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    Or maybe few have actually needed panel replacement. I had a pair of Aerius from '96 with original panels, worked perfectly. I also have a pair of Ascent from 02 that had original panels working perfectly as well. I replaced the Ascent panels ebcause I came across a great deal and wanted the clearspar panels. I have a pair of Summits that are from 06, panels work perfectly.

  12. #42
    Super User Rich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timm View Post
    I respectfully disagree with you here... The reason is that the result set as I said in my previous post is skewed to find 'problems' and ignores anyone that has had 'no problems' - which gives you no real indication of the failure rate.
    The purpose of this poll, as Justin said in his first post, is to try to get an idea of how long panels last before they go bad. In other words, life expectancy. You are trying to get at something else entirely, and that is failure rate. These are totally different statistics and would probably require separate polls asking different questions.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    The purpose of this poll, as Justin said in his first post, is to try to get an idea of how long panels last before they go bad. In other words, life expectancy. You are trying to get at something else entirely, and that is failure rate. These are totally different statistics and would probably require separate polls asking different questions.
    Life expectancy cannot be determined based on a few people having early failures, either.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hocky View Post
    Life expectancy cannot be determined based on a few people having early failures, either.
    Nothing can be determined with a "few" responses. But over time, if enough people respond to this poll, a picture of average life expectancy and minimum and maximum life expectancies can easily be determined.

    Already, I find it fascinating that almost half the respondents thus far are reporting panel life spans of under ten years! If that percentage holds up with greater numbers of replies (enough to make it a statistically significant number), then it is a huge condemnation of ML's manufacturing process.

    Think about it. If you are considering buying Summit X or CLX (spending 10 to 20 grand for a pair of speakers) and you have a fifty percent chance of the panels going bad and needing replacement in less than ten years, how is that going to make you feel about your purchase? Especially when other Stat manufacturers don't seem to be having this problem?
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Nothing can be determined with a "few" responses. But over time, if enough people respond to this poll, a picture of average life expectancy and minimum and maximum life expectancies can easily be determined.

    Already, I find it fascinating that almost half the respondents thus far are reporting panel life spans of under ten years! If that percentage holds up with greater numbers of replies (enough to make it a statistically significant number), then it is a huge condemnation of ML's manufacturing process.

    Think about it. If you are considering buying Summit X or CLX (spending 10 to 20 grand for a pair of speakers) and you have a fifty percent chance of the panels going bad and needing replacement in less than ten years, how is that going to make you feel about your purchase? Especially when other Stat manufacturers don't seem to be having this problem?
    I would like to know which other stat manufacturers have sold as many ESL speakers as ML. I would also like to know if they have any long term weaknesses. I have heard that Quad ESL's suffer from some maladies over time.

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