Why do ML panels die?

This white paper may be of some interest regarding stators:

http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/ultra-stat-wp

Horchem1972 said:

How can you say it is insignificant.I bet you would be surprised at their revenue achieved by selling new panels.If Roger can do it,there is no reason why a company as large as ML cannot .I love my Logans,but come on.I am not blind or deaf.ML makes way more money off their speakers than Roger Sanders does and he offers lifetime replacement panels.He also tranfers the warranty if you buy them used.It sounds like he is more confident in the build quality of his panels than ML is.With Mr. Sanders selling less speakers it is even more impressiveee that he offers lifetime warranties on the panels,since his profit margins are even lower.

Click to expand...

Horchem. Why do you assume roger's profit margins are less than Martin logans? ML has more revenue but I am betting roger's profit margin per speaker manufactured is higher because he has fewer employees , overhead etc. Secondly, offering lifetime warranties on a limited quantity of speakers vs tens of thousands really limits your liability don't you think?

One other thing. I remember looking at innersound about 5-6 years ago and heard the same 'doesn't arc!!!' quality aspect of the speaker. Same with sanders sound systems. My logans - my brothers logans have never arced. I don't think arcing is an issue with logans - so I don't get the hype with that

have you ever heard a sanders sound speaker? Personally, I have not. I know of no dealers. Maybe they are out there but I am unaware.

And what good is Mr. Sanders lifetime replacement warranty if he and his wife should encounter an unfortunate event?

And Horchem, my evidence is anecdotal based on common sense.

If you have numbers that suggest the contrary, please provide.

GG

The issue was not listening or hearing them.It was why does ML not offer lifetime panel warranties and Sanders does? I would be glad to post the numbers if they were available.Maybe ML will tell us their profit margin on a pair of panels?? I would highly doubt that.Almost no company will actually release the actual cost of their products.It is a known fact in idustry that the more you can produce the revenue stream is much higher.Every company has a goal to produce as many as possible.Longer production lines means way more profits.The question is,why has ML not been able to produce a panel with lifetime warranties?? As many of you call Sanders a small one man show with a few employees.He seems to have more confidence in his product than ML does.There is no reason why he can offer lifetime panels and ML only offers a 5-year warranty.

This is to Angela.What is backup plan for owners if something happens to Roger? Is there a person who will continue his heritage or will the company simply go away?? This is a topic that is brought up everytime there is a discussion of Sanders or ML products.Your input or Roger's would be greatly appreciated.

Gordon Gray said:

And what good is Mr. Sanders lifetime replacement warranty if he and his wife should encounter an unfortunate event?



GG

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The same as if ML goes out of business tomorrow.They have already announced discontinuing panels on certain products or speakers that are over 10 years.They could announce tomorrow that they will stop all ESL technology.Anything is possible in this day of age and greed.

Good question...especially since some of us may well be considering converting, either soon or downstream (when the ML panels go).

I am also curious regarding this question because I have advised some folks to not buy Sanders products for this very reason.

Regarding ML vanishing, the only issue I am aware of, since the buyout, is what panels Corporate will or will not replace.

GG

It's not like Roger Sanders last company stayed in business for a terribly long period of time.

Why are you beating this horse to death?

I can see someone with a pair of Summits or CLX's being jumpy about this, but if you bought a pair of ML's over 10 years ago, they weren't that expensive of a pair of speakers to begin with.

Also, if we want to play devils advocate here, it's easy for someone like Sanders Sound to offer a lifetime warranty when they have only been doing business under this name for a few years. Makes them sound a lot bigger than they are. You won't know if this is something they can even deliver 15 years from now.

Personally, I wouldn't take all that much stock in a lifetime warranty from anyone and certainly not from a company this small, be it Roger or anyone else. If he's not in business five or ten years from now, the warranty will be meaningless.

I am not against buying a boutique product. Again - if it sounds good - cool. If I think the owner is a stand up guy (which it seems Roger is) - cool.
A lot of our hobby is from companys that are small - one man start ups etc... But, I seem to hear a lot of 'what ifs' out there -- and anyone who wants to sell their ML's and purchase a pair of speakers @ Summit X prices from Sanders Sound -- I say 'go for it'... if you think they are better than Summit X's / Maggie 20.1s and whatever 13K speaker is out there....

If you have never heard a Summit X and have never heard a Sanders Sound electrostat - then I really have to question which end you are speaking out of. Who here has heard the 10b? I would like to hear your impressions compared to a Summit X or another speaker in this price category.

Here is a question: Roger was Innersound - and it seems he allowed a larger company to come in to help with cash flow/marketing/distribution etc... What has been learned from that experience that will make SandersSoundSystems a better company - so that Horchem and Len's new Sanders Sound System 10b's will be safe in the future and that this new company will not face the same fate as Innersound?

tonepub said:

I can see someone with a pair of Summits or CLX's being jumpy about this, but if you bought a pair of ML's over 10 years ago, they weren't that expensive of a pair of speakers to begin with.

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i paid 7,000 for my ML's 20 years ago. in today's dollars not what a CLX goes for, but hardly inexpensive.

The point I'm trying to make is that NONE of the high end audio companies are that big in the scheme of things. Most electronic products will either fail when they first power up, after about 100 hours or about 1000 hours. Ask any EE about this and most will give you the same answer.

The Sanders speakers haven't been around long enough to know what the field failures are going to be like in 20 years. Unless Roger has thousands of woofers stockpiled, those drivers may not be available either.

And should there be a failure rate in excess of what he expects in 20 years (provided he's even still around), the company will go under and you'll be out of luck anyway.

Again, just playing devils advocate here. This doesn't mean Sanders speakers are not good and it doesn't mean they won't last, etc. etc., I just wouldn't be basing a product purchase on a warranty which may or may not be able to be fulfilled. I'd be highly suspect of anyone offering a lifetime warranty on anything.

Wow
I know Mondays suck, but really guys...I check in this morning and you’ve killed off Roger and the company sits in flames lawdy

I joined this discussion because I was asked a question directly by Horchem1972. I will attempt to answer the two prevailing questions as I understand them.
<o></o>
Support of Products
I am not sure if you know Roger's history, so let me briefly outline it here. Innersound Inc was started in 1996 and the owner, who lived abroad in England, hired Roger as engineer to design the products. The products were all based on Roger’s research since the mid ’70’s. Raj wanted to move onto other real estate investments and sold his company to Roger and a partner in 2002. Innersound was moved to Boulder, CO. In neither of these cases was Roger ever “in charge”. Roger formed his own company, Sanders Sound Systems after dissolving his partnership in Innersound. In 2008, Innersound ceased operations and referred all customers to Sanders Sound Systems. I think it says a lot about Roger to be able to continue to stay focused on the customers throughout this time and to be able to work his previous partner to make sure that the customers were taken care of.

In summary, both of the first 2 company’s investors/owners have come and gone and Roger is still here supporting ALL products today and continues to have a wonderful relationship with all customers, new and old.

Company Contingency Plan: The plan is that the company continues and products are sold and supported as usual. No one knows what the future may bring, but Sanders Sound Systems has enough confidence in its products and they are reliable enough to offer a lifetime warranty. No one else does this. If you read his white paper, it should be very clear why he can offer lifetime warranty. Listen, no one knows the future of any company. Would it make you feel better if Sanders Sound Systems offered the industry standard of a 3 year limited warranty? Bottom line, Roger stands by his customers and that is not hype or marketing (ask any customer).
<o></o>
Warranty I keep reading "lifetime replacement" in many of the posts. It may be nit picking, but I think it is important to state the difference here:
<o></o>
There is a lifetime warranty; not a “lifetime replacement". The latter implies that the panels die and need to be replaced. That is simply not the case. The panels do not die and do not need to be “periodically” replaced.
<o></o>
I hope I’ve answered the questions. I’ll update Roger when he gets back from his mountain bike ride in about an hour.

cheers everyone,
Angela

Angela said:

Wow
I know Mondays suck, but really guys...I check in this morning and you’ve killed off Roger and the company sits in flames

lawdy

I joined this discussion because I was asked a question directly by Horchem1972.

I will attempt to answer the two prevailing questions as I understand them.
<o></o>
Support of Products
I am not sure if you know Roger's history, so let me briefly outline it here. Innersound Inc was started in 1996 and the owner, who lived abroad in England, hired Roger as engineer to design the products. The products were all based on Roger’s research since the mid ’70’s. Raj wanted to move onto other real estate investments and sold his company to Roger and a partner in 2002. Innersound was moved to Boulder, CO. In neither of these cases was Roger ever “in charge”. Roger formed his own company, Sanders Sound Systems after dissolving his partnership in Innersound. In 2008, Innersound ceased operations and referred all customers to Sanders Sound Systems. I think it says a lot about Roger to be able to continue to stay focused on the customers throughout this time and to be able to work his previous partner to make sure that the customers were taken care of.

In summary, both of the first 2 company’s investors/owners have come and gone and Roger is still here supporting ALL products today and continues to have a wonderful relationship with all customers, new and old.

Company Contingency Plan: The plan is that the company continues and products are sold and supported as usual. No one knows what the future may bring, but Sanders Sound Systems has enough confidence in its products and they are reliable enough to offer a lifetime warranty. No one else does this. If you read his white paper, it should be very clear why he can offer lifetime warranty. Listen, no one knows the future of any company. Would it make you feel better if Sanders Sound Systems offered the industry standard of a 3 year limited warranty? Bottom line, Roger stands by his customers and that is not hype or marketing (ask any customer).
<o></o>
Warranty I keep reading "lifetime replacement" in many of the posts. It may be nit picking, but I think it is important to state the difference here:
<o></o>
There is a lifetime warranty; not a “lifetime replacement". The latter implies that the panels die and need to be replaced. That is simply not the case. The panels do not die and do not need to be “periodically” replaced.
<o></o>
I hope I’ve answered the questions. I’ll update Roger when he gets back from his mountain bike ride in about an hour.

cheers everyone,
Angela

Click to expand...

Angela -- I think everyone here - including myself wish Sanders Sound Systems a profitable venture. I read the stories on Innersound - and as I had said - was interested in the Kia???(if I recall the name) - and started doing some investigation right BEFORE Roger was gone... In mid-investigation saw all the 'drama' - and the new corporate strategy within Innersound. When I saw that - there was no way I could purchase an Innersound speaker - and hoped that Roger would in fact start up another company as he has.

There have been statements here on the reliability of Martin Logan speakers on the 'MartinLoganOwners.com' site - by some because of a company policy - and not necessarily because of actual experience with the quality of their own speakers or the owners approval rating of their Logans sound quality. You got dragged into it because direct questions and comparisons between the two companies were made.

I am admittedly an ML bigot and think they make great speakers with high build quality. This in no way denegrates SSS. One question for you - do you plan to create a dealer network so that people can audition them in a store?

What I'm the most curious about is that every other electrostatic speaker (Quad, Acoustat, Sound Labs, etc etc,) at some point in time does degrade and has to be replaced.

What makes the Sanders panel impervious to EVER needing replacement?

Also, while we are on the topic of lifetime warranty (as opposed to replacement), in the case that a panel does fail, what then?

Again, just being devil's advocate here but how old is Roger, how many employees do you have and how many pairs of 10's are actually out in the market? I think this would be a more likely barometer of the possibility of something being replaced/repaired 20 years from now for those that are that concerned about it.

Horchem1972 said:

The same as if ML goes out of business tomorrow.

Click to expand...

Exactly - that's why warranty means diddly-squat to me. They often make it so difficult to make a claim anyway that you never do.

To me, they're not worth the paper they're written on - that's why I'd prefer to buy a product known for its quality and that I know is not going to fail.

I, like others, wish Roger and Angela the best but it's pretty obvious from Angela's latest response (and the fact that he is a one person company) that, once Roger is gone, so is Sanders electronics.

If folks want to buy the product given the nature / structure of his company, have at it.

Jeff also brings up some very valid points.

Timm asked about differences between the Sanders speaker and the ML Summit X.

Haven't heard the X but I've owned the Summit since December 2005. I heard Roger's current model at the 2009 RMAF. So here's my take.

The Sanders speaker is the proverbial head in a vice design with a very limited (read one person) sweet spot. They are quite wonderful within that very narrow window but ...... Dramatic imaging / frequency drop off when you are outside the sweet spot. I believe Roger will claim that a curved panel compromises imaging and that's probably true.

Some may prefer the more accurate imaging at the expense of a laser like, one person only musical experience. I don't and could never live with a speaker like that. I had the Acoustat I + I's and they were quite similar in that regard.

It's certainly true that ML's lose their imaging magic as one sits off center but it is nowhere as dramatic as the Sanders ES. That's of course due to the curved panel.

And on a final note, I question the appropriateness of one stat manufacturer using a competitors internet forum to espouse the virtues of their speakers and, by inference, criticizing the other manufacturer's speakers.

As I said in the beginning, I wish Roger and Angela the best but, with all due respect, it just doesn't feel right to me.

GG

Innersound story

here is the email from roger sanders I was looking for. It is to the moderator of the planar forum over at audioasylum back in 2005??? or so??. I saw this a long time ago - which is why I said - Roger was Innersound and was reamed by the brass there in some shady dealings... this is long - but I think worth it...

Hi Mart,

Thank you for contacting me and requesting the facts regarding my leaving innersound, LLC. I'll give you a brief historical perspective followed by my comments. Unless I state otherwise, everything is fact, not opinion.

I have been developing electrostatic loudspeaker designs and their integration with dynamic woofers since 1972. The first of several articles on these subjects was published in 1974 in The Audio Amateur magazine.

As time passed, my designs improved, and I published more articles and became internationally known for my work, I was eventually commissioned to write a book on the subject. The Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design Cookbook was published in 1994.

The book sold well and it generated several offers to produce a commercial product. I decided to partner with Raj Varma, an audiophile from the U.K. who agreed to finance a new company. InnerSound, Inc. was founded in 1996.

Raj lived in Europe while InnerSound operated in Georgia. Raj left me to operate the entire operation in the U.S.

I did the R&D, design work, marketing, accounting, and manufactured the Eros and Isis ESL/TL hybrid speakers. I produced these in our Whitesburg Georgia factory until January 2003.

Due to the difficulties amplifiers experience when driving ESLs, I also arranged for the design and production of an amplifier that could drive ESLs exceptionally well. The solid state "Electrostatic Amplifier" (or ESL Amp as it was commonly called) was the result. Due to popular demand, I eventually added an exceptionally user-friendly preamp to the line.

I also developed speaker cables that were specifically designed for the unique demands of ESLs. We produced these in-house and also added high-performance, reasonably-priced interconnects to the line.

By 2002, I had built Innersound, Inc. into a productive company, but due to the recession, money became tight. This prevented me from expanding into new products that I had developed, like center channel speakers, surround speakers, video processors, and unique tube amps and preamps. So when in late 2002, Gary Leeds offered to buy the company so it could progress, I was very interested.

Mr. Leeds is a multi-millionaire (by inheritance), and was very good at marketing. I felt that with his money and marketing skills, Innersound could become a serious player in the audio industry. So Raj and I agree to sell the company to him. At Mr. Lead's insistence, we moved the operation to Boulder Colorado, where he dissolved the original InnerSound, Inc. and started innersound, LLC. in February 2003.

Mr. Leeds agreed to transfer my financial investment in InnerSound, Inc., to innersound, LLC. and that we would be equal partners where he would do the marketing and I would handle production. However, he demanded that he be "more equal" by having 51% of the shares while I had 49% of them. By doing so, he assured himself that he could keep control of his money and have the final word in all corporate decisions. While I was concerned about this, he wouldn't have it any other way, so I accepted his offer.

Once the company moved to Colorado and there was no turning back, Mr. Leeds immediately demanded and took total control of the company. He would not allow me or anyone else to make any decisions or handle any aspect of operations. He micromanaged everything. He constantly changed the design of our products, making it impossible to stabilize any design so that it could be produced.

His most perplexing decision was his refusal to open a speaker factory. He insisted that everything could be out-sourced and that all innersound needed was a sales office.

I won't bore you with the enormous impact and details associated with this momentous decision. I'll simply state that out-sourcing highly-specialized speakers doesn't work and that as a result, we could not produce any product. With no income, significant operational expenses, and many false production starts, innersound quickly began to accrue large amounts of debt.

Mr. Leeds also alienated many of my original vendors, which further degraded our ability to produce product. For example, he failed to negotiate a satisfactory agreement with the designer that I was working with to make high-performance tube electronics. As a result, the vendor refused to do business with innersound, which resulted in the loss of the entire line of tube electronics I had been working on for over two years.

Mr. Leeds also decided that he did not want to produce any of my current products. So he abandoned all the products that we could have promptly put into production and insisted that all new products be designed and produced before we had anything to sell.

I'm sure you realize that designing and producing an entirely new line of products takes a lot of time and money. This was seriously complicated by the fact that he wanted to produce both speakers and electronics at the same time. Doing either takes an enormous amount of energy and resources, but trying to do four different speakers, and new amplifiers and preamplifiers all at the same time was overly ambitious to say the least. Doing so would have required world-class management. Attempting this with Mr. Leeds making all the management decisions was insane.

As if that weren't enough, Mr. Leeds was covertly making arrangements with others to immediately add new products to the line like hard-disk recorders, equalizers, and DACs. He was doing this without my knowledge or approval -- and remember that as the company's engineer, I would have had to be deeply involved in the technical details and production issues to bring these new products to market.

As I was the only engineer on staff, Mr. Leeds had no choice but to allow me to do the engineering design work on the Kaya and Kachina speakers (replacements for the Eros and Isis). He also had me develop Tehya, a center-channel speaker. Prototypes of these were built and shown for the first time at CES, January 2004. My original solid state electronics were modified and put in new chassis and also shown at CES 2004. Mr. Leeds dramatically raised the prices on all products.

By the end of CES (February 2004), it had been a year since Mr. Leeds had purchased the company, and we still had no products in production. By April of 2004, Mr. Leeds realized that a company can't build speakers without a speaker factory, so he finally leased a factory building.

I set up the speaker factory and started building speaker cabinets in June of 2004. However, continued conflict over the company's direction, constant product changes, micromanagement, poor decisions, great debt, and the inability to produce product, brought me to the realization that innersound was doomed to failure. It had been a year and a half since Mr. Leeds bought out InnerSound, Inc., and we still had no products in production!

Throughout this time, Mr. Leeds deceived the public by advertising products in the print media, through shows, and on the web. This was all a facade as at no time did he ever have the advertised products in inventory or even close to production. This was an enormously costly activity that added greatly to the company's debt without producing any sales.

The anvil that broke the camel's back occurred on June 30, 2004 when Mr. Leeds informed me that I was no longer a 49% partner. He had been financing the company's huge debt (now in the seven-figure range) from his personal fortune and told me that he was converting that debt into shares in the company. The resulting dilution of my investment money would reduce my 49% partnership in the company to virtually nothing. Seeing that I was being forced out, that there was no future for me with Mr. Leeds, and that the company was failing, I left on July 1, 2004.

It is now five months later and Mr. Leeds has refused to agree to any financial settlement or separation agreement with me. So I remain an involuntary investor and partner in innersound, LLC, but I am not involved in the operations of the company. Mr. Leeds now has total control of my life's work, but has not compensated me for it.

In summary, Mr. Leeds has taken a functioning company with minimal debt (InnerSound, Inc.) and turned it into a facade (innersound, LLC.) that has been unable to produce product, has accumulated enormous debt, and alienated its customers.



Best,
Roger Sanders

Timm,

Thank you for sharing that information.

Seems to explain why Roger may have adopted his current company structure.

Notwithstanding my previously expressed reservations, I have the greatest respect for his efforts, dedication, and contributions to hi end audio.

Gordon