Whats happening to this Forum???

Today I have come to a sudden conclusion. This forum has started to loose its main content. "Martin Logan". We have threads that are about how many esoteric watches you own. What other expensive hobbies do you do. I sold my best friend "NOW IM DEPRESSED"... Better run... MARTIN LOGAN is going down the tubes. Its been a while since I have felt the old relevance of the site. Members are being bullied and banned, Members are self promoting and using the site to do it. I find this to be common practice as of late.
There seems to be a loss of real knowledge based threads by original posters. They either left the site or will refrain from posting. I have seen many a old knowledge base leave or stop posting. I am not against a good debate but topics and threads have waned.


Sorry folks if I seem like Im ranting, I AM. Apparently I failed the "ANGER QUIZ".... However; I did see we have "A FEW MEMBERS AWAOL" I know sites grow with new members and new ideas but lets stop the self promotion and self loathing and get back to what its all about. AUDIO. SOUND REPRODUCTION. Shared knowledge about REAL topics. Lets not BAN members for expressing opinions and lets stop the bullying and the self promotions. I DONT CARE if you run a magaazine, I dont care how depressed you are for selling a speaker that wasn't even a ML. Take a Prozac and sit in the corner. I do not want to know you have 6 Rolex watches. I don't care that you have 4 other hobbies that are all more expensive than this one. Elitism is not something to be bragged about.



I know this will draw a lot of opinions but hey! They are like A**holes , we all have one and they all stink sometimes. Sometimes the truth hurts too.

C.A.P said:

Today I have come to a sudden conclusion. This forum has started to loose its main content. "Martin Logan". We have threads that are about how many esoteric watches you own. What other expensive hobbies do you do. I sold my best friend "NOW IM DEPRESSED"... Better run... MARTIN LOGAN is going down the tubes. Its been a while since I have felt the old relevance of the site. Members are being bullied and banned, Members are self promoting and using the site to do it. I find this to be common practice as of late.
There seems to be a loss of real knowledge based threads by original posters. They either left the site or will refrain from posting. I have seen many a old knowledge base leave or stop posting. I am not against a good debate but topics and threads have waned.


Sorry folks if I seem like Im ranting, I AM. Apparently I failed the "ANGER QUIZ".... However; I did see we have "A FEW MEMBERS AWAOL" I know sites grow with new members and new ideas but lets stop the self promotion and self loathing and get back to what its all about. AUDIO. SOUND REPRODUCTION. Shared knowledge about REAL topics. Lets not BAN members for expressing opinions and lets stop the bullying and the self promotions. I DONT CARE if you run a magaazine, I dont care how depressed you are for selling a speaker that wasn't even a ML. Take a Prozac and sit in the corner. I do not want to know you have 6 Rolex watches. I don't care that you have 4 other hobbies that are all more expensive than this one. Elitism is not something to be bragged about.



I know this will draw a lot of opinions but hey! They are like A**holes , we all have one and they all stink sometimes. Sometimes the truth hurts too.

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I have recently participated a bit more than in the past. But I generally don't post as often I would like because of posts like yours. Guess I'll leave as well.

Chris,

I do share some of your concerns and hopefully have not been a contributor to the apparent fractured environment we've all seen lately. If I have been, I will be the first to apologize. And I think you are acting appropriately in bringing this issue to the surface.

Seems like we all may need a reality check as to what this Forum is and the desired future direction thereof.

I will admit I'm more than bummed about ML's current moves and JP's departure seemed to be the spark that sent me over the edge. That edge being a long time supporter of ML.

Given the fact that this is a public forum, one should expect a certain lack of focus, and at times, civility. But it does seem to me that the lack of focus and civility has become more prevalent in the recent past.

I promise you and others that I will do my best to respect the spirit and intent of the MLC and so indicate (in a polite and respectful manner) if I feel it is going in a different direction.

Best,

Gordon

One thing I try to do is practice what I call the 24 hour rule. If I am upset or angered by something someone said or did, I'll wait 24 hours (cool off period) before I respond. Just a thought.

Hey Guys

I have not been a member for very long but am not sure I know what has happened that went wrong. I have been on other Audio forums that are so full of horrible bickering and harassment I really have not seen it here. I Don't know what "self promoting" means. Really I don't.

I posted a few times with some worries I had and to find some help with a power amp I sure hope topics or products did not come up that were a problem here. I'm clueless really I just love my Preface speakers.

Personally, I think that people discussing other hobbies in an off topic forum is a good thing, and it didn't appear that they were bragging. It's nice to have met some of the people from this forum and talk about subjects OTHER than audio from time to time. That's what builds friendships. Typically people that are obsessed about audio are usually obsessed about something else and I always find it interesting to see what other people are interested in.

As for the discussing music and audio, I'm all for it, however when you get people that are obsessed, there are plenty of opportunities for heated discussion.

And, CAP, while you made it a point to mention that you don't care that I run a magazine, that's fine with me, however what I see on this and many other forums, is that most of you have a lot of the same questions pertaining to getting the most out of your system.

Because I run a magazine, I have a lot more access to gear than most of you do and because I'm the only magazine editor/writer that actually owns a pair of MartinLogan speakers (and has owned almost every other major pair of their products over the past 25 years) that some of my opinions might be of some help in getting more performance out of your systems.

Usually, if someone wants to know if a certain bit is compatible or whatever with a pair of ML's, chances are I own it, we've had it in for review or I will investigate and report back to the group. It works both ways, sometimes you guys have led me down a few paths to products I didn't know about.

I see it as a pretty good two way street, so sorry if that offends you.

When I need help with my computer, I call a friend that is an IT professional and I don't take it as a slight to my character that he's got more experience than I do. And just like here, I figure something out on my own and we have a good laugh.

I'd love to see a little more lightheartedness here.

tonepub said:

and because I'm the only magazine editor/writer that actually owns a pair of MartinLogan speakers (and has owned almost every other major pair of their products over the past 25 years) that some of my opinions might be of some help in getting more performance out of your systems.

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hey...your not the only one!:rocker:

A few points C.A.P. -

We've been in an economic downturn for quite some time. I think the amount of buying and selling of audio-related equipment is not really high on everyone's list at the moment. Thus, you don't see as many people posting about their newest purchases, upgrades, etc.

Your original posts (forum direction) tend to surface from time to time and you don't have to read the non-audio related threads. I don't think they dilute the overall quality of the forum as long as the posts are friendly and non-combative (no name calling, insults, etc). The 'purists' might argue otherwise - a Martin Logan based forum should be based solely on the speakers and associated equipment and others could venture off to forums where watches, travel, etc are discussed at length.

Having said all of that, there's a HUGE amount of relevant information already available on this forum (and other forums). Search is a beautiful thing and you can find hundreds of posts on cables, amps, tubes, acoustics and so on. I cannot tell you what makes people gravitate toward posting about a Rolex vs a discussion of sound wave absorption (both can be interesting).

Erik

Deja Vu....

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=7619

I posted that over 2 years ago, chastised for those thoughts....and yet here we are, back once again....

In my opinion, good off topic discussion drives board usage which in turn keeps the relevant posting up, too.

C.A.P said:

Today I have come to a sudden conclusion. This forum has started to loose its main content. "Martin Logan".

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No, that's what the 'Main Discussion forum' is about, granted their has been a couple threads as of late with a fair amount of negativety towards M/L, but IMO it's been 'aired out' in a pretty civil manner.

We have threads that are about how many esoteric watches you own. What other expensive hobbies do you do.

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yes........and your point is ??.......Chris, it is an 'Off Topic Forum' for crying out load, myself I love to see other peoples passion outside of audio. So for those not interested it's really quite simple........DON'T LOOK !

On another forum I frequent there is discussion (off topic) about 'Scotch' , I have enjoyed reading that over the years for it's given me some insight on a few gems that I have enjoyed discovering.

Members are being bullied and banned, Members are self promoting and using the site to do it. I find this to be common practice as of late.

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have you tried PM'ing myself, Tim or Tom to discuss this ?

There seems to be a loss of real knowledge based threads by original posters. They either left the site or will refrain from posting. I have seen many a old knowledge base leave or stop posting. I am not against a good debate but topics and threads have waned.

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valid point, not sure there is an exact answer but I think your observation is sound.

I know sites grow with new members and new ideas but lets stop the self promotion and self loathing and get back to what its all about. AUDIO. SOUND REPRODUCTION.

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I'm all for that !

Chris, I am not in any way 'bashing you' rather trying to address a few of your points as I see them. Like any forum, it's 'work in progress' and at times like this I suppose it makes sense to take a step back and observe what's going on, as Dan (DTB300) said when he brought this up two years ago.

BTW, spring is in the air..............I think I'll start a discussion about fertilizer (in the 'Off Topic Forum' of course)........I know, I know....there's been alot of manure thrown around here lately !.....

I hear what you're saying, Chris, and know exactly what you are talking about.

This is a tightly run forum. Whilst you may not agree that some members should have been banned, the decisions to do so are made by those that have the power to do so. Whilst I know some members that I certainly would not have banned, I can see the reason why they have been banned.

Some other forums are much more permissive. In fact, you can say pretty much what you like, and it seems sometimes that the moderators posts are often the rudest and most offending of the lot.

The simple answer is, if you don't like the show, don't attend it. At the end of the day it is only a forum. This is a fact that some people don't seem to be able to get a grasp of, and receiving a ban is something that seriously upsets them. I know, I've been on the receiving end of private e-mails from members that have been banned. And I know they are seriously upset about it. My advice is pretty much what it says above - IT IS ONLY A FORUM - GET OVER IT!!!

Those with eager eyes will realise what it takes to get a ban here - there's a commonality to it that I am not going to express and will remain unsaid. If you don't know what I'm talking about, so much the better, really

Anyway, much of the upset here has simply been due to to the recent changes at Martin Logan, which has caused a lot of bad feeling. I think I've come to the conclusion that Martin Logan reps should NOT post on this site - it causes to many problems, and as I have hinted at, it takes a lot of skill and thought to do well. This is especially true with regards to what information should and should not be released, for the sake of harmony more than anything else.

Oh - and in case anyone is wondering, I am still the proud owner of a pair of Ascents and a Descent.

And I own a 1967 Omega and I like it very much

C.A.P said:

Today I have come to a sudden conclusion. This forum has started to loose its main content. "Martin Logan". We have threads that are about how many esoteric watches you own. What other expensive hobbies do you do. I sold my best friend "NOW IM DEPRESSED"... Better run... MARTIN LOGAN is going down the tubes. Its been a while since I have felt the old relevance of the site. Members are being bullied and banned, Members are self promoting and using the site to do it. I find this to be common practice as of late.
There seems to be a loss of real knowledge based threads by original posters. They either left the site or will refrain from posting. I have seen many a old knowledge base leave or stop posting. I am not against a good debate but topics and threads have waned.


Sorry folks if I seem like Im ranting, I AM. Apparently I failed the "ANGER QUIZ".... However; I did see we have "A FEW MEMBERS AWAOL" I know sites grow with new members and new ideas but lets stop the self promotion and self loathing and get back to what its all about. AUDIO. SOUND REPRODUCTION. Shared knowledge about REAL topics. Lets not BAN members for expressing opinions and lets stop the bullying and the self promotions. I DONT CARE if you run a magaazine, I dont care how depressed you are for selling a speaker that wasn't even a ML. Take a Prozac and sit in the corner. I do not want to know you have 6 Rolex watches. I don't care that you have 4 other hobbies that are all more expensive than this one. Elitism is not something to be bragged about.



I know this will draw a lot of opinions but hey! They are like A**holes , we all have one and they all stink sometimes. Sometimes the truth hurts too.

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fo·rum (fôrm, fr-)
n. pl. fo·rums also fo·ra (fôr, fr)
1.
a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.

While I joined this site primarily for information & discussion about ML speakers I certainly enjoy learning about members other hobbies & passions beyond speakers. That's the beauty of this forum it provides areas that people can discuss nothing, but MLs or what ever they feel like discussing. Just as we are free to discuss other topics you are free to pay no attention to them. That is the beauty of the country we live in! I'm not sure what self promotion you speak of and I have not seen any bullying, but perhaps I am not spending time in the same sections of the forum that interest you.

I don't care if people post on different topics in the 'off topic' forum...or post about Montana speakers in the 'off topic audio/video' forum.. The Original posts I have no issue with at all. They are usually in the right forum sections. Sometimes I find the responses to those posts to be a bit over the top???

I find it ironic that in some posts about other products- people will respond with 'Hey, this is a Martin Logan forum - up yours!! - who cares!!' while on this thread - the OP mentions that he would LIKE it to be all ML - and the responses are exactly the opposite.

RE: the 'if you don't like it - leave...' mentality - well, I think all of us for the most part want this to be an active successful forum with people that can give great advice and help solve issues.... I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO LEAVE!!.. Thanks all...

timm said:

I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO LEAVE!

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A bunch of the good ones have already taken that path, and a few more are already on that path nearing the end...

This forum, like others, replicates the reality of most things in life.

There's a natural ebb and flow. Whether one sees that as a good thing or not is clearly subjective in nature.

I recall some members that no longer post but know of others who have joined and have made positive contributions.

GG

It's great. Members discuss all sorts of things here and that's what it is about. I for one, have developed several acquaintances here and what makes those acquaintances stronger is the ability to discuss all sorts of things, hence getting to know the people better - getting a wholistic view of the person, not just an object to discuss ML speakers.

Sure, there are going to be threads that don't interest you. DON'T READ THEM.

There are threads that don't interest me. I too, don't give a 5h1t about someone who is depressed because he has sold some speaker I have never even heard or seen. But quite frankly, I haven't even opened the thread. I wouldn't know what is going on in there. Simply, I don't care.

To make that easy, that is why there are several forums and groups. If you only want to read about ML, then only read the "on-topic" forum. Simple really.

Not to repeat what others have said, but I guess I will....

As long as people are born and die you will have members that come and go, that will never change.....unless an asteroid hits earth and makes everyone steril then the joining MLC part would be a real problem, and we might lose a large group of members all at once.

More to the point as time goes on, you will have people that are introduced to MLs, and fall both in and out of love with them, you know who you are..... and some may join MLC to learn and share experiences, which by the way in the appropriate section like "Off-Topic", includes by definition other things than just ML speakers.

Others may find audio bliss with another type of speaker or just have a life experience that takes them in a different direction and whatever path they follow, I don't really believe that they owe us a explanation of why, when or where they left to go follow some other one of life's paths.

But as far as learning about other members passions and interests, I too find it interesting to see that some, but not all ML speaker fans, find other things that are well made, or limited in production or vintage or chocolate in nature, are worth collecting, possessing, lusting after or just worth eating and at the same time produce a passionate following similar to what we seem to have here for Martin Logan speakers.

I know I participate in other forums that interest me and at the same time reflect my interests. I don't think by merely expressing a desire, interest, or addiction to some of the things I mentioned above makes you elitist.

And let me give you an example. If you bought a real Ford Shelby Cobra new in 1964 for $5600 dollars and kept it like new and just turned down $550,000 dollars for it today, does that make you an elitist or are you just a car buyer who happened to buy something that became collectible.

However, you are in a very elite club whether you like it or not as an original owner of a Shelby Cobra you bought new and have owned continuously since 1964. I have a friend here in Indy, that is this person and he is far from elitist but let me tell you he may be the only original Shelby owner left in the world and he will not take a million dollars for that car, so that is pretty elite, if you ask me.

But my point is, having passion or desire or an addiction to any or all things I previously mentioned does not automatically make you elitist......and then again it doesn't mean you are not. It really just depends on why the person collects, desires, lusts or eats what they eat. Being part of an elite or limited group is sometimes what happens when you strive to experience or possess, the best, the fastest, the coolest, or whatever, it may be the point of the whole experience. And if you think about it, many in the audio world consider ML owners as elitists.

As long as this is a public forum you will have disagreements and discussions of various points of view, as long as you are somewhat civil about it, I think that this is a place to be, if you are not then you are asked to go somewhere else.

I guess I feel that we should realize that what we post can be done in a non-offensive way if we actually take the time to think about it long enough and if it takes to long to think of it that way and it takes 24 hours or more to think about it that way, well then Gordon's 24 hour would mean that we probably shouldn't post anyway.

This HAS been discussed before as DTB300 has pointed out and I think my response to that thread is still valid.

Running this forum is not my life's work, so I apologize for not reading every single post and seeing who's getting pissed at who, etc. The bickering and personal attacks IMHO are making it less enjoyable and I have seriously considered pulling the plug and just being done with it.

I have responded to more than one member who was complaining about things, "make me an offer - the site, content and everything can be yours and you can deal with all of it and run the place as you see fit".

I got no reply.

Bottom line is this, and I'll quote User211, "IT IS ONLY A FORUM - GET OVER IT!"

I think perhaps what is causing some of the problems that C.A.P may be feeling is that there really is only so much you can do with a speaker and after a while people just get bored and feel like talking about whatever and that leads to meaningless crap! pile on the fact that there is major changes going on with Martin Logan itself and the economy is not what it has been and there you go. all I can say is get a little cheese to go with that wine and just relax as Tom said "it's only a forum".I think it's supposed to be fun that's probably why Tom started it in the first place.

I'd also have to agree with this idea. There's only so much you can do with your system, so it is nice to actually get to know some of the people here.