Flashlight technique for ML setup on youtube!

ML has posted a nice youtube video illustrating the infamous "flashlight trick" for properly setting up ML's...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsBUFCsyP4s

Smart idea, from both a marketing and support perspective! I hope they'll post more educational/marketing videos in the future.

sleepysurf said:

ML has posted a nice youtube video illustrating the infamous "flashlight trick" for properly setting up ML's...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsBUFCsyP4s

Smart idea, from both a marketing and support perspective! I hope they'll post more educational/marketing videos in the future.

Click to expand...

Hey thanks!

On that topic, is there anything particular you think would be helpful in video form? We've got a few ideas brewing, but would love to hear what you would be interested in seeing.

Thanks,

~Justin

Nice Vid Justin.......btw, tell Joel to get a sport coat that fits him ! .... LOL !

twich54 said:

Nice Vid Justin.......btw, tell Joel to get a sport coat that fits him ! .... LOL !

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Oh I'm sure he's going to love hearing that!

~Justin

Since placement and toe-in are so very important to the perceived sound performance of MLs, I would suggest a couple of changes.

Since lasers are much more prevalent these days and actually throw a much tighter beam, I would suggest you also do a video of the Flashlight trick, actually using a laser. Maybe call it the Laser trick(sounds more high tech) and better for marketing purposes.

I found that when I user a laser and hit the exact spot that matches the angle from which I am pointing, it shows a very clear and very thin straight up and down line as well as a small tight reflective dot where the laser hits and reflects.

And here is a big point, instead of saying turn the speaker in until the light hits at about 1/3 from the inside, give and exact measurement of say 2.5 inches from the inside edge of the speaker. That way with or without help, someone could put a piece of tape at the exact measured point and then just turn until the light touches it. Unfortunately about 1/3 will get you all kinds of strange results, trust me I have seen what my wife thinks is 1/3 and sometimes it is closer to 1/2 than is 1/3 and that is on a good day.

This exact measurement technique would also be of benefit to just the flashlight trick too. Sorry guys about 1/3 is just not close enough since it is a subjective measurement or guess really.

How about a "general overview" about "ideal" placement (e.g. not right up against walls, etc.) along with a compilation of system pics from a variety of real-world setups (pics from here and the new ML website "Insiders Club"). You might even consider letting "Insider Club" members create their OWN (short) videos, to feature on youtube and/or the new ML website!

P.S. Once I get my newest gear sorted out on my rack, I plan on taking new pics of my setup, and posting on the ML website.

-justin- said:

Hey thanks!

On that topic, is there anything particular you think would be helpful in video form? We've got a few ideas brewing, but would love to hear what you would be interested in seeing.

Thanks,

~Justin

Click to expand...

panel replacement (scary on the bigger ones)
rail removal on models that have rails (question that pops up time and again)

you might try a search of thread titles to see what pops up repeatedly or search for threads where people are saying "this has been answered, use the search function...

Oh, how about one showing the proper way to vacuum the stat panels AFTER unplugging them overnight.

sleepysurf said:

ML has posted a nice youtube video illustrating the infamous "flashlight trick" for properly setting up ML's...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsBUFCsyP4s

Smart idea, from both a marketing and support perspective! I hope they'll post more educational/marketing videos in the future.

Click to expand...

Agreed! I'm glad the video also specifically mentioned toe-OUT, as my Spires are slightly toed out.

Sleepysurf, thanks for posting the link.

ML thanks for making the video.

One small comment. Decorum should have the narrator acknowledge the name of the young lady holding the flashlight.

That you can get a female into a music room or fiddling with a stereo is a small accomplishment itself.

I also would like to see a post showing how to replace panels and woofers.

RichTeer said:

Agreed! I'm glad the video also specifically mentioned toe-OUT, as my Spires are slightly toed out.

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This toe out doesnt make sense to me

The video was poorly scripted and lacked any real explanation of setup

I just got my source speakers today and the user guides the worst Ive ever seen almost infuriating for a first time user like myself

projectormovielover said:

This toe out doesnt make sense to me

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The rationale is this: MLs sound best when using the inner third of the curved electrostatic panel. If you sit further back from the speaker plane than a certain distance, you must slightly toe out the speakers so that the inner third is pointing in your direction.

Does it make sense now?

RichTeer said:

The rationale is this: MLs sound best when using the inner third of the curved electrostatic panel. If you sit further back from the speaker plane than a certain distance, you must slightly toe out the speakers so that the inner third is pointing in your direction.

Does it make sense now?

Click to expand...

Actually, toe in or toe-out is all about balancing the direct vs reflected energy in the room.

Once again, these are dipole line-sources that radiate equal amounts of mid and high-frequency energy into the room. Where the rear of the panel is pointing has almost as much to do with the resulting soundfield as where the front of the panel is aimed.

So the normal recommendation resulting from the flashlight technique generally results in a reasonable compromise of direct vs reflected sound.

But, and it's a BIG BUT (no jokes now ) ), the room shape, reflectivity and all kinds of acoustic factors will play a MUCH bigger role in whether you have a cohesive, balanced soundfield or not.

So remember, when aiming the speaker, you are aiming TWO sound sources.

My suggestion: JonFo (wait, that's me) needs to write a script and some graphics on 'how to fit your ML's to your room and how to fit your room to your ML's', then make a video out of it.

JonFo said:

Actually, toe in or toe-out is all about balancing the direct vs reflected energy in the room.

Once again, these are dipole line-sources that radiate equal amounts of mid and high-frequency energy into the room. Where the rear of the panel is pointing has almost as much to do with the resulting soundfield as where the front of the panel is aimed.

So the normal recommendation resulting from the flashlight technique generally results in a reasonable compromise of direct vs reflected sound.

But, and it's a BIG BUT (no jokes now ) ), the room shape, reflectivity and all kinds of acoustic factors will play a MUCH bigger role in whether you have a cohesive, balanced soundfield or not.

So remember, when aiming the speaker, you are aiming TWO sound sources.

My suggestion: JonFo (wait, that's me) needs to write a script and some graphics on 'how to fit your ML's to your room and how to fit your room to your ML's', then make a video out of it.

Click to expand...

Amen Jon!

I'm in the midst of "tweaking" my setup, and, because I have 3 additional (off-axis) seating positions (besides the "sweet spot") from which I listen, I have found that "extreme toe-in" works best for me. The flashlight trick is merely a "starting point", and the video should probably mention that.

projectormovielover said:

This toe out doesnt make sense to me

The video was poorly scripted and lacked any real explanation of setup

I just got my source speakers today and the user guides the worst Ive ever seen almost infuriating for a first time user like myself

Click to expand...

how much do you understand about first, second and third order reflection in an audio environment?

If you don't have a fairly good grasp on audio engineering aspects like that, you may want to look into a few books on the topic. I have one here somewhere that yamaha produced some years ago that explains the point of the toe-out, but without understanding how bi-pole speakers work in a room, it's hard to understand why positioning matters. ES panels don't disperse sound the same way a point-source conventional speaker does. He mentioned this in the video with the 30 degree curve of the panel.

projectormovielover said:

This toe out doesnt make sense to me

The video was poorly scripted and lacked any real explanation of setup

I just got my source speakers today and the user guides the worst Ive ever seen almost infuriating for a first time user like myself

Click to expand...

1. If your dealer didn't explain anything about speaker set-up (in this case ML electrostatic), complain to him.
2. I just read the Source manual and it is up to the high standards that ML has set for its manuals. It is technical, but that is what your dealer is for. If your dealer knew that you were new to ML speakers and didn't explain the manual to you, ...
3. If your dealer won't help you now that you have the speakers in your house, ...
4. Call ML and complain and while you are at it ask for help.
5. You came to a good place to learn. Just let us know what your problems are and we will try to help.

Room setup for any electrostatic or dipole speaker can be a challenge. You'll need to learn the language and read a few books. Take your time, the rewards are worth the effort.

hahaha yeah the only ML dealer in my entire state is on the other end of the state down in Charleston, and it's a Best Buy (magnolia) I doubt if I buy mine there, they would either know anything about positioning, OR come out to help install them, being about an hour and a half away.

The problem with ML dealers is the utter and total lack of them. When I lived in MI, there were two in the state, and the closest, again, was a 3 hour drive. At least there, the Listening Room seemed a lot more helpful and well educated than the typical BB employee.. no offense. I wish high end retailers were more abundant.

GlassWolf said:

hahaha yeah the 9only ML dealer in my entire state is on the other end of the state down in Charleston, and it's a Best Buy (magnolia) I doubt if I buy mine there, they would either know anything about positioning, OR come out to help install them, being about an hour and a half away.

The problem with ML dealers is the utter and total lack of them. When I lived in MI, there were two in the state, and the closest, again, was a 3 hour drive. At least there, the Listening Room seemed a lot more helpful and well educated than the typical BB employee.. no offense. I wish high end retailers were more abundant.

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Actually, there is another ML dealer in your state. Read Brothers Stereo 593 King Street Charleston SC. I have dealt with them for 25 years. They carry the higher end ML speakers and have a very knowledgeable installer who will work with you to get placement right. It will cost you some change to get personal delivery and set up. Believe me it is well worth it.

The dealers are in Charleston or near by, and I'm in Columbia, which is an hour and a half away. I'm just saying that's the problem. It's hard to get at-home service with that sort of distance. I love ML. I just wish it was easier to find a "dealer next door."

I miss living in the DC area in some regards. There, I could find nearly anything within 20 minutes.

Thanks for the note on the other dealer though. I may have to take a trip there whern I get ready to pick up the pair of Vantages I'm eyeing.

GlassWolf said:

hahaha yeah the only ML dealer in my entire state is on the other end of the state down in Charleston, and it's a Best Buy (magnolia) I doubt if I buy mine there, they would either know anything about positioning, OR come out to help install them, being about an hour and a half away.

The problem with ML dealers is the utter and total lack of them. When I lived in MI, there were two in the state, and the closest, again, was a 3 hour drive. At least there, the Listening Room seemed a lot more helpful and well educated than the typical BB employee.. no offense. I wish high end retailers were more abundant.

Click to expand...

ML did itself a disservice when it pushed its small dealers out. I know two reputable dealers that said ML's demands were such that they quit carrying the brand.