Listening observations...

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JonFo said:
Now, for the rest of it.

That room is definitely an echo chamber as I see it. Lot's of broad, unbroken surfaces behind, and to the sides of the speakers will transfer a lot of reflected energy back into the room.
Smooth, reflective opposing walls set up a nice resonance vector for mids and highs.
So no surprise you are unhappy with the sound, and hear too much of a reverberant field.

With dipole, line source electrostats, one has basically the acoustic equivalent of a 3' or 4' high stack of dynamic-driver mini-monitors, two-deep, one facing forward, and one facing the wall (and out of phase).

There's a reason we don't see too many people running dynamic drivers like this, it introduces huge placement complexities.

The biggest is the energy being directed at the wall behind the speaker.

As I usually suggest, managing and dampening that is job #1. I recommend one RealTraps MiniTrap HF behind each of your speakers offset from the wall by 2" and aligned on the wall to be at the focal point of the rear of the panel.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much. The room actually doesn't echo like you'd think. I only get a slight PA sound from certain HD programming through satellite tv.

On the subject of absorption behind the speakers; what do you mean by "focal point?" Also; why space the absorbing panels 2" from the wall? Is this more effective at absorbing high frequencies? I currently am playing with 12" x 5' Echo Buster absorbing panels behind the speakers. I'm not hearing a big difference so far. Maybe a bit more depth to the stage and more central focus. Vocals are still thin sounding until I sit to the side of the speakers. In essence; the sweet spot is very small and sounds thin. Bass is starting to sound better and the lower registers seem very accurate and non-bloated. Vocals are annoyingly recessed and not fleshed out as much as I'd like.
Thanks and keep the great replies coming.
Eric
 
Eric,

Try toeing in the speakers. Use a flashlight to check for consistency. This should "soften" the dryness you are hearing. If it doesn't, try more toe out. Also, make sure that the distance from the back wall to each speaker is exactly the same. By that, I mean within 1/8".

Next, adjust the rake angle of the panel so that it is closer to perpendicular. Make sure that the angle is exactly the same for both speakers. This should help with the recessed center image you are hearing.

To get more "body", try moving the speaker away from the back wall. This should decrease the glass / reflectivity effect from your TV.

All three adjustments are interdependent on each other so be ready to play with all three until you dial in the sound you are looking for.

And most importantly, take your time and have fun. You should hear the impact of each of these adjustments if your system is up to it and the cumulative effect can be quite good.

Good luck.

GG

PS: Try the toe in / out first, panel angle adjustment next, and finally the speaker / couch adjustment. Try the toe in / out in small increments. Go for perpendicular panel angle right off the bat.
 
Last edited:
Gordon Gray said:
Eric,

Try toeing in the speakers. Use a flashlight to check for consistency. This should "soften" the dryness you are hearing. If it doesn't, try more toe out. Also, make sure that the distance from the back wall to each speaker is exactly the same. By that, I mean within 1/8".

Next, adjust the rake angle of the panel so that it is closer to perpendicular. Make sure that the angle is exactly the same for both speakers. This should help with the recessed center image you are hearing.

To get more "body", try moving the speaker away from the back wall. This should decrease the glass / reflectivity effect from your TV.

All three adjustments are interdependent on each other so be ready to play with all three until you dial in the sound you are looking for.

And most importantly, take your time and have fun. You should hear the impact of each of these adjustments if your system is up to it and the cumulative effect can be quite good.

Good luck.

GG

PS: Try the toe in / out first, panel angle adjustment next, and finally the speaker / couch adjustment. Try the toe in / out in small increments. Go for perpendicular panel angle right off the bat.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the great reply; Gordon. This gives me a game plan and I look forward to experimenting. These speakers seem to go against all my previous experiences. For instance; I would think more toe-in would make the sweet spot even narrower? I shall find out. I've been waiting for someone to comment on the TV reflections. I'm going to mount the tv on the wall which will place it farther back and switch to a lower equipment stand. I'm tempted to pull the DH Labs speaker cable and reinsert the Anticables. The Anticables are so musical and fuller bodied.
Eric
 
as others have said, your #1 problem is having the listening chair against rear wall. I don't care what speaker you put in front of you, that listening position is going to sound like crap! You may want to rearrange your room where you have the speakers on the other side of the room (short wall) and you can put your listening seat out in the open. Tile floors are bad for acoustics as well - may want to put thick carpet over them or thick area rugs. Put acoustic panels behind front speakers and rear wall and it will sound alot better. I don't think tube amps will make a lick of a difference in your setup. It's in the acoustics, baby!
 
gordonmenninger said:
as others have said, your #1 problem is having the listening chair against rear wall. I don't care what speaker you put in front of you, that listening position is going to sound like crap! You may want to rearrange your room where you have the speakers on the other side of the room (short wall) and you can put your listening seat out in the open. Tile floors are bad for acoustics as well - may want to put thick carpet over them or thick area rugs. Put acoustic panels behind front speakers and rear wall and it will sound alot better. I don't think tube amps will make a lick of a difference in your setup. It's in the acoustics, baby!
Click to expand...

I'm currently listening with my seating position around 36" into the room and have played with various seating positions up to this point. While the sound is a bit more intimate; it hasn't improved to any appreciable amount. I have considered moving the speakers to the short wall as I had good luck with my Apogees there. Placing the speakers on this wall creates it's own problems though. I end up with increased bass reinforcement to the extreme and more sidewall reflections. Both are treatable but which position is worse? I have a very large throw rug on the floor but the pics don't show it. Thanks.
Eric
 
Suppose I place the speakers on this wall? Would the wood blinds act as diffusion between the speakers?

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Eric,

Had a similar setup in my previous house.

Assuming you have a rod that allows for opening and closing the blinds, it can work quite well as far as "fine tuning" the reflectivity of the back wave and the resultant "liveliness" of the sound.

Another advantage may be more bass reinforcement from the side walls but, in your case, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

GG
 
Your room looks a lot like mine. I have my speakers on the short wall and don't think I'd move them again. Gordon G gives you some great suggestions, believe me.

Gordon #2 or 3!
 
Update

I added quite a bit of toe and the sound really came together. It's more toe than Martin Logan recommends with the flashlight method. Now when I move my seating position away from the wall behind me; I can hear the difference. With my head about 2-1/2" from the rear wall; everything snaps into focus.

I purchased the speakers as dealer demos and I discovered that one panel distorts when I play female vocals. While listening to Enya today; she hit a higher note and held it. The panel started resonating. I heard this the other day with a different recording and thought I was just hearing things. Does anyone know if these are matched pairs?
Thanks!
Eric
 
They may or may not be. The bigger problem is that you may (I say may) have a bad panel. You will see the following repeated many times here.

Assuming that the electronic are not the problem:

1. Inspect the panels and speaker to see if anything is loose or malformed.
2. Vacuum the panels after they have been powered down (pull the plugs) for at least one night.
3. If you still have the problem call your dealer and/or ML. You may need to replace the panel
 
Well I exchanged the bad speaker and hooked up the new one. The sound seems much better with a short listen. As I was listening; I noticed the new speaker had no blue power light. I pulled the woofer grill and the LED was lit. Somebody screwed up and drilled the LED hole a good 1/2" lower then the other speaker so the LED is now hidden behind the ML logo on the grill. So much for quality control. Is it true that these "Great American" speakers are actually made in China and assembled in Kansas?
 
Eric,

Glad the replacement is working.

Regarding ML manufacturing locations, we had quite a long and robust discussion on the issue in another thread.

Glad the toe in worked for you.

I do believe you would be better of with the ML's on the short wall. From the pictures, it seems all you would need to do is rearrange some furniture and get some longer speaker cables.

GG
 
Gordon Gray said:
Eric,

Glad the replacement is working.

Regarding ML manufacturing locations, we had quite a long and robust discussion on the issue in another thread.

Glad the toe in worked for you.

I do believe you would be better of with the ML's on the short wall. From the pictures, it seems all you would need to do is rearrange some furniture and get some longer speaker cables.

GG
Click to expand...

Hello Gordon. I turned the room around and placed the Source's on the short wall. At first I heard an opening of the sound while playing with placement and seating position. I then noticed an even thinner sound than before with very poor bass. No matter where I placed the speakers I could not enhance the mid to low bass to acceptable levels. The panels were overwhelming the woofers. Chris Isaak's chestiness was gone and excellent drum lines from Patricia Barbers Modern Cool album were all but gone. I played with room treatments to no avail. :confused: The music was no longer full and well, musical. The wicked resonance and echo that some warned me about all hit in this position. Needless to say; I returned the room to the original positioning shown in my pics. The bass and fullness returned. I then tweaked the positioning on the long wall and the sound further improved. I reconnected the Velodyne sub and blended the lows. Wallah! I'm a happy camper.

I look forward to playing with some added room treatment and installing a balanced interconnect pair between integrated and cd player. Thanks to all for the advice.
Eric
 
Eric,

Glad you tried it and discovered that the long wall placement worked best for you.

As we all know, ML's are not the most user friendly speaker. However, once you find the right place in the room and optimize the other variables, they can be extremely musical and engaging.

As Roberto and many others (including myself) have said, trust those things on the side of your head.

And most important of all, enjoy the music.

Gordon
 
Gordon Gray said:
Eric,

Glad you tried it and discovered that the long wall placement worked best for you.

As we all know, ML's are not the most user friendly speaker. However, once you find the right place in the room and optimize the other variables, they can be extremely musical and engaging.

As Roberto and many others (including myself) have said, trust those things on the side of your head.

And most important of all, enjoy the music.

Gordon
Click to expand...

Gordon;
I checked out the pics of your room with polished wood floors and all that glass. My first thought was "bright and echoey." I'm sure it is just the opposite though just as my room looks deceiving. The only complaint I have in my room is the occasional high frequency ringing and I'm working on that. I've had the completely carpeted rooms before with generous wall treatment and I always longed for something better. I then found a local audio salon with some unique listening rooms and I asked many questions and learned what I was missing. My past listening rooms were on the dead side. I took more of the Michael Green approach with less is more. My ears like the livelier sound of my room, but it's just a personal preference. I can tell you that it is never bright sounding.

Currently enjoying the music...:D
 
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