Listening observations...

dsrtjeeper · Mar 15, 2010

I've been listening to my new Source speakers and have noticed a couple of things. I've mostly listened to box speakers so it may explain what I'm hearing.

I've noticed that the vocals on many of my cd's now sound very thin. For example; Chris Isaac has always sounded chesty on my past speakers. This is a sound that I like. I tried absorptive panels against the wall behind the speakers and did not like the results.

While listening to HD Dish TV through the Sources; I get an echo. The speakers sound like PA speakers. I suspect I'm hearing the surround sound programming of HD tv.

These speakers are plain spooky to listen to but the thin sound bugs me.

My listening room is 14' x 20' with vaulted ceilings. The speakers are on the long wall about 7' apart. They are 31" from the front wall to the center of the panels. I sit one foot from the back wall. Walls are single layer drywall with various wall hangings to break up/ absorb waves/reflections. Ceiling corners and two sides are treated with room tunes.

Thanks for any advice.
Eric

kach22i · Mar 15, 2010

The meat on the bones fat sound which can really Rock & Roll can be obtained with M/L's but not quite the same as box speakers and not as fat.

Carefully examine your room acoustics again. There are different schools of thought in the forum on what is best, use the search function.

For me a meatier fat sound includes a solid center image which is one of the reasons my speakers are only four feet apart (not mono but getting there). I also have extra sound absorption on the front wall in between the speakers (not behind the speakers).

Speaker wires, interconnects, amps and so forth all play a more important role in the end results than with less revealing speaker types.

Do you have a subwoofer? If so turning up the crossover frequency point and or changing the sub's location may be in order.

Welcome to the club.

Please post photos of your room and system layout so people can give you more specific suggestions.

EDIT-1: If these Source speakers are NEW new, and not just new to you, then there is a woofer break-in period (at least a couple of weeks).

Check your owners manual for further ideas.

EDIT-2: All equipment has break-in periods (wires, amps....), the tubes in my tube amp required 125 hours listening time.

churchill · Mar 15, 2010

Post a pic or two of your room set up and I'm sure some fellow members will chime in with some recommendations.

JMAUSGP · Mar 15, 2010

Couple questions, is this a 2 channel or multi-channel setup?

Have you done any research on this site to read about speaker setup?

Does rake and toe-in ring a bell?

dsrtjeeper · Mar 15, 2010

JMAUSGP said:
Couple questions, is this a 2 channel or multi-channel setup?

Have you done any research on this site to read about speaker setup?

Does rake and toe-in ring a bell?

I'm actually not new to ML's. I've owned the Vistas in the past along with Acoustats and Apogees. I have conducted a lot of research but am curious if the Source speakers had their own unique sound characteristics. The setup is 2 channel. I'll get some pics up ASAP. Thanks.

dsrtjeeper · Mar 15, 2010

kach22i said:
The meat on the bones fat sound which can really Rock & Roll can be obtained with M/L's but not quite the same as box speakers and not as fat.

Carefully examine your room acoustics again. There are different schools of thought in the forum on what is best, use the search function.

For me a meatier fat sound includes a solid center image which is one of the reasons my speakers are only four feet apart (not mono but getting there). I also have extra sound absorption on the front wall in between the speakers (not behind the speakers).

Speaker wires, interconnects, amps and so forth all play a more important role in the end results than with less revealing speaker types.

Do you have a subwoofer? If so turning up the crossover frequency point and or changing the sub's location may be in order.

Welcome to the club.

Please post photos of your room and system layout so people can give you more specific suggestions.

EDIT-1: If these Source speakers are NEW new, and not just new to you, then there is a woofer break-in period (at least a couple of weeks).

Check your owners manual for further ideas.

EDIT-2: All equipment has break-in periods (wires, amps....), the tubes in my tube amp required 125 hours listening time.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I am running a sub crossed over at 50hz. I am contemplating moving the speakers closer together. It has worked in the past with conventional speakers. Maybe it's time to return to tube amps?

amey01 · Mar 16, 2010

Yep - as others have said - acoustics is the key - start with positioning and explore room treatments later if you need to.

Now - more the key to your issue is break-in. Woofers, but new panels especially can sound very thin, brittle and quite harsh in my book. It'll take about 300 hours to fully break them in, but you should notice some big improvements (you'll be 90% the way there) after 100 or so hours. Say a month or so of regular listening.

You've got a truly world-class speaker so take your time and have fun. My bet will be that after break in, careful positioning and some room treatments if necessary, you'll be listening to a fluid, smooth system within 3-4 months! Enjoy.

dsrtjeeper · Mar 16, 2010

amey01 said:
Yep - as others have said - acoustics is the key - start with positioning and explore room treatments later if you need to.

Now - more the key to your issue is break-in. Woofers, but new panels especially can sound very thin, brittle and quite harsh in my book. It'll take about 300 hours to fully break them in, but you should notice some big improvements (you'll be 90% the way there) after 100 or so hours. Say a month or so of regular listening.

You've got a truly world-class speaker so take your time and have fun. My bet will be that after break in, careful positioning and some room treatments if necessary, you'll be listening to a fluid, smooth system within 3-4 months! Enjoy.

I've never been a big believer in long breakins. I truley believe that our ears/brains just become accustomed to the sound over time. Even ML states only 72 hours for breakin? The woofer and suspension mainly need any length of breakin.

amey01 · Mar 16, 2010

dsrtjeeper said:
I've never been a big believer in long breakins. I truley believe that our ears/brains just become accustomed to the sound over time. Even ML states only 72 hours for breakin? The woofer and suspension mainly need any length of breakin.

I also totally agree with what you are saying.

However the specific instance of break-in to which I am referring was when I repanneled my Vistas. Now, I know they are the new-gen panel and so are your Sources, albeit a little bit different. I was already used to the sound of the Vistas and the newly paneled speakers were placed in the same position in the same room, so there was nothing to become "accustomed to". That's how long it took for my Vista panels. YMMV.

JonFo · Mar 16, 2010

dsrtjeeper said:
...

While listening to HD Dish TV through the Sources; I get an echo. The speakers sound like PA speakers. I suspect I'm hearing the surround sound programming of HD tv.

Some of it might be the programming, but your statement about echos and highly reverberant field type experience tell me that you still need to treat the room some more.
Absorption behind the panels is one way of dampening the delayed, out of phase rear wave. that will reduce the 'echo' and reverberant sense.

The other is based on your following observation:

dsrtjeeper said:
... My listening room is 14' x 20' with vaulted ceilings. The speakers are on the long wall about 7' apart. They are 31" from the front wall to the center of the panels. I sit one foot from the back wall. Walls are single layer drywall with various wall hangings to break up/ absorb waves/reflections. Ceiling corners and two sides are treated with room tunes.

Thanks for any advice.
Eric

If sitting that close the the rear wall, you are in a position to have several issues. Bass reinforcement or null (although typically, it's reinforcement), which might make you mid-bass feel 'thin', as the lower registers are unbalanced.

The other is, you are likely getting a bounce off the rear wall that is arriving 2ms (1 to go past your ears, one to come back to them from the wall) after the direct sound. This will cause comb-filtering and skew the image a good bit.
And since your system orientation puts you on the narrow (14') end, you will get a level of reflection bounce between the two walls that will definitely contribute not only to echos, but to serious high-frequency ringing at higher volumes.

I recommend good absorption on the wall behind you, it doesn't have to be too thick (at least 2"), as we're mainly trying to deal with 500hz on up, but the broader the absorption the better.

kach22i · Mar 16, 2010

JonFo said:
I recommend good absorption on the wall behind you

Excellent catch JonFo, I missed that he was only one foot off the rear wall. He needs to be at least three feet off the rear wall or add the absorption you described.

I think Spectral has his sofa pretty much against the rear wall, I suggest that dsrtjeeper take a peek at his layout in the Members System area.

EDIT: Don't forget the Flashlight Method!
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125&highlight=flashlight

JMAUSGP · Mar 16, 2010

Okay, then I assume you have already adjusted the rake of the Sources. I know my Sources changed their sound quite a bit as I brought them to within a degree or two of straight up vertical. I also spiked them on carpet on top of a concrete floor.

Also as JonFo already stated, being 12 inches off the rear wall especially if it is not treated properly is going to cause more than one sound anomally.

I was using the Sources as rear surrounds and since the subwoofer took care of the low end, I was very pleased with the performance of the Sources with everything above the crossover point, but I had them 7 feet apart and 46 inches off the rear wall at 30 inches off the side wall and on an angle at 8 feet from my ear. And those were exact measurements.

I used a laser measuring tool to measure all distances within 1/8 of an inch and used a level to get the Sources upright in all directions.

But then again maybe you did all this already.....in that case....nevermind

dsrtjeeper · Mar 16, 2010

JonFo said:
Some of it might be the programming, but your statement about echos and highly reverberant field type experience tell me that you still need to treat the room some more.
Absorption behind the panels is one way of dampening the delayed, out of phase rear wave. that will reduce the 'echo' and reverberant sense.

The other is based on your following observation:

If sitting that close the the rear wall, you are in a position to have several issues. Bass reinforcement or null (although typically, it's reinforcement), which might make you mid-bass feel 'thin', as the lower registers are unbalanced.

The other is, you are likely getting a bounce off the rear wall that is arriving 2ms (1 to go past your ears, one to come back to them from the wall) after the direct sound. This will cause comb-filtering and skew the image a good bit.
And since your system orientation puts you on the narrow (14') end, you will get a level of reflection bounce between the two walls that will definitely contribute not only to echos, but to serious high-frequency ringing at higher volumes.

I recommend good absorption on the wall behind you, it doesn't have to be too thick (at least 2"), as we're mainly trying to deal with 500hz on up, but the broader the absorption the better.

I do listen with an absorptive panel laying horizontally behind my head. I also have experienced the high frequency ringing. Both my seating position and the speakers sit along the 20' wall and not the 14' wall. I prefer my rooms on the livelier side but am up for trying anything. I've had fully treated rooms before and it killed the music. I have several Echo Buster diffusion and absorption panels that I will be experimenting with. I have no slap echo in my room currently. Thanks for the advice and I'll be posting pics soon.

dsrtjeeper · Mar 16, 2010

JMAUSGP said:
Okay, then I assume you have already adjusted the rake of the Sources. I know my Sources changed their sound quite a bit as I brought them to within a degree or two of straight up vertical. I also spiked them on carpet on top of a concrete floor.

Also as JonFo already stated, being 12 inches off the rear wall especially if it is not treated properly is going to cause more than one sound anomally.

I was using the Sources as rear surrounds and since the subwoofer took care of the low end, I was very pleased with the performance of the Sources with everything above the crossover point, but I had them 7 feet apart and 46 inches off the rear wall at 30 inches off the side wall and on an angle at 8 feet from my ear. And those were exact measurements.

I used a laser measuring tool to measure all distances within 1/8 of an inch and used a level to get the Sources upright in all directions.

But then again maybe you did all this already.....in that case....nevermind

Thanks for the measurements. This gives me a much better idea of where to start with room position. I currently am not happy with the bass output of the Source speakers at 31" from the wall. If I pull the speakers out further into the room; it seems likely that I will lose more bass. I don't get much sidewall bass enforcement with the speakers on the long wall. I have set the rake and toe. I suspect part of what I'm dealing with is getting used to clean sound once again. Thanks for the great advice and keep it coming.
Eric

dsrtjeeper · Mar 16, 2010

Room pics

Here's a few pics to give you an idea...

dsrtjeeper · Mar 16, 2010

more pics

Here's a few more.

dsrtjeeper · Mar 16, 2010

I just realized that the very first pic I posted on the first page shows the camera flash reflection on the speakers. It shows the toe-in angle just like the flashlight method.

JonFo · Mar 17, 2010

Thanks for posting the pics, that really helps get a better sense of the room.

First, let's talk bass. Your current sub location is too close to a corner, which is going to reinforce all kinds of room modes. I suggest moving it to here Nipper (the RCA dog) is just the the right of your rack. This will put it more towards the center of the room along the long wall, as room mid-point's have been shown to have a much smoother response than corners.

This should help level out the bass a good bit, even with your sub-optimal seating location.

JonFo · Mar 17, 2010

Now, for the rest of it.

That room is definitely an echo chamber as I see it. Lot's of broad, unbroken surfaces behind, and to the sides of the speakers will transfer a lot of reflected energy back into the room.
Smooth, reflective opposing walls set up a nice resonance vector for mids and highs.
So no surprise you are unhappy with the sound, and hear too much of a reverberant field.

With dipole, line source electrostats, one has basically the acoustic equivalent of a 3' or 4' high stack of dynamic-driver mini-monitors, two-deep, one facing forward, and one facing the wall (and out of phase).

There's a reason we don't see too many people running dynamic drivers like this, it introduces huge placement complexities.

The biggest is the energy being directed at the wall behind the speaker.

As I usually suggest, managing and dampening that is job #1. I recommend one RealTraps MiniTrap HF behind each of your speakers offset from the wall by 2" and aligned on the wall to be at the focal point of the rear of the panel.

JonFo · Mar 17, 2010

the asymmetry of a reflective wall on the left side of the room, relatively close to the left speaker is also contributing to a skewed soundfield.
To address that, the dampening of the back-wave using the absorbers I recommend above will help, but you should also consider having additional absorption on that left wall. Or at least some diffusion, such as a complex piece of artwork or a small leafy tree.

As JMAUSGP suggest, making the rake vertical will also help, although with a Source, you might also have to elevate it a bit more so the top of the panels are at least 6" above your ear height when seated.

One of the problems tilted line-sources (or any speaker for that matter) have is that they project their soundfield at an angle onto opposing walls, which then reflect onto the ceiling, which then reflects onto the wall behind the speaker, which reflects back at the listeners. So now the returned energy has traveled more than 25' or 30ms and is definitely heard as reverberation.

This is another reason to treat the wall behind the couch, it will improve that aspect as well.

And even if the ESL panels are vertical, the absorption on the opposing wall will mitigate the slap-echo or ringing that will occur (as you've already experienced).

Listening observations...

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