How much power is enough power?

Hocky said:

I bought an Aragon 8008 today... we'll give that one a try and see how it sounds.

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I think you may enjoy the Aragon/ML combo. I run two Aragon Paladium monoblocks. each Pal is basically an 8008BB bridged. The 8008 is an evolution of the 4004 which is a Dan DaGostino design. This is why Aragon has often been called the....Poor Man's Krell

Hocky said:

I bought an Aragon 8008 today... we'll give that one a try and see how it sounds.

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Congrats on the new amp!

DrJRapp said:

I think you may enjoy the Aragon/ML combo. I run two Aragon Paladium monoblocks. each Pal is basically an 8008BB bridged. The 8008 is an evolution of the 4004 which is a Dan DaGostino design. This is why Aragon has often been called the....Poor Man's Krell

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YUP. GOOD amp.

The Aragon is here. Overall impressions are good - it has a warmth almost like that of the mcintosh, but with a bit more texture. It seems to handle fast high notes better than any of the amps I've tried. So far, I like it. It doesn't feel harsh at all, but not too smooth either. It really helped to wake up my center channel, too. My only complaint is that the amp doesn't seem very sensitive to the preamp output and I've had to bump my speaker volume levels a bit to keep them where I had them before.

Now I just need a second one to power my rear 3 cannel so I have a reason to go esl all around. lol

Adcom made or makes some high current multi channel and three channel amps.

If you can find a used GFA-5503 three channel amp in decent shape, they drive logans very well.

I had one for 10 years that served me well in the home theater driving a pair of Stylos and a Logos across the front.

A'gon or Flebay would be a good place to start looking for one of these, unfortunately I sold mine to another ML owner last year.

Hocky said:

The Aragon is here. Overall impressions are good - it has a warmth almost like that of the mcintosh, but with a bit more texture. It seems to handle fast high notes better than any of the amps I've tried. So far, I like it. It doesn't feel harsh at all, but not too smooth either. It really helped to wake up my center channel, too. My only complaint is that the amp doesn't seem very sensitive to the preamp output and I've had to bump my speaker volume levels a bit to keep them where I had them before.

Now I just need a second one to power my rear 3 cannel so I have a reason to go esl all around. lol

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Hello,
That is from the low Input Impedance of the Aragon 22 kOhms that you have to raise your levels. Especially true if you are using an AVR as your preamp.
Cheers,
JJ

I just stumbled upon this comparison (http://www.audioresearch.com/HIFICRITIC-REF110.pdf) of the Audio Research Reference 110 amp vs. the Conrad-Johnson Premier 350 amp. On the last page, Martin Colloms states the C-J yields "up to 60A peak current and cruises at up to 400W/ch, while the Reference 110 levels out at constant 110W/ch... with a more moderate peak current capability of about 10A (good for a valve design)."

His latter statement suggests that tube designs do NOT typically put out particularly high current. Does anybody know of a tube amp that DOES offer "peak current" comparable to solid-state or hybrid designs?

Hocky said:

The It seems to handle fast high notes better than any of the amps I've tried.

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One of the things I noticed while I was interviewing amps to match up with the Summit was how transparent the high end was on any Aragon amp I tried. This is largely due to the amps stability into low impedance loads which on ESLs occure at the higher end of their frequency spectrum rather than at the lower end as in a dynamic speaker.

Jerry,

Seems to be consistent with my limited evaluation. Had a chance to audition a well respected tube amp (VTL 150) and ended up with the Pass Labs.

Significant differences at the top end. Both amps had their pros and cons but for me, I ended up preferring the Pass.

GG

quick question

i currently have vistas with pioneer elite VSX-23txh
110/7 all channels driven

would i be better off with 110/7 at 8 ohms or
150/7 at 6 ohms?

for the time being until i pick up an amp

sleepysurf said:

I just stumbled upon this comparison (http://www.audioresearch.com/HIFICRITIC-REF110.pdf) of the Audio Research Reference 110 amp vs. the Conrad-Johnson Premier 350 amp. On the last page, Martin Colloms states the C-J yields "up to 60A peak current and cruises at up to 400W/ch, while the Reference 110 levels out at constant 110W/ch... with a more moderate peak current capability of about 10A (good for a valve design)."

His latter statement suggests that tube designs do NOT typically put out particularly high current. Does anybody know of a tube amp that DOES offer "peak current" comparable to solid-state or hybrid designs?

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That's only a test sample of one and I'm not so sure that represents all tube amps. I've seen many tube manufacturers refer to their amps as "high current" designs but unfortunately they don't put that in meaningful terms and there is no standard to publish specs for current capability. But Manley Audio Labs publishes some interesting specs on their Manley Stingray Integrated Ipod amp that might be useful in regards to power demands of electrostat speakers.

"Maximum Output Power UL mode: 32 Watts x 2 channels 1.5% THD @ 1kHz into 5 ohms
Maximum Output Power TRIODE mode: 18 Watts x 2 channels 1.5% THD @ 1kHz into 5 ohms
Frequency Response: 15 Hz - 58 kHz, -1dB
Gain: 35 dB at max Volume
Input Sensitivity UL Full Power: 210 mV in = 32 watts out into 5 ohms with volume control at maximum
Input Sensitivity Triode: 41mV in = 1W into 5 ohms with volume control at 20dB gain setting
Input Sensitivity UL: 35mV in = 1W into 5 ohms with volume control at 20dB gain setting
Crosstalk: -72dB See Chart
S/N Ratio: typically 72 dB A-WGT, 1W output, 20dB gain, Source Z = shorted input
THD+N Ratio: typically 64 db at 1W output, Bandwidth 22Hz-22Khz, Source = 1Khz Sine wave
Input Impedance: 12 Kohm nominal
Optimum Speaker Load: 5 ohms
Speaker Terminal Output Impedance at 20Hz: 2.36 ohms
at 1KHz: 2 ohms
at 20KHz: 1.83 ohms
Damping Factor: 2.4
Headphone Jack Output Impedance: 53 ohms"

This indicates that this particular tube amp would match well with the impedence demands of an electrostatic speaker's when playing in the high frequency ranges. It's also a relatively high output impedance to wattage output ratio considering the latter is only 18-32 watts. I'm not suggesting a 32 tube watt amp is best suited for a MartinLogan speaker but it will probably sound much better than any 50 watt SS amp.

There were some characteristics of the ARC tube amp that the reviewer preferred over the CJ Premier 350 SS and vice-versa and that's been my experience with the few tube and SS amps i've used. However, SS amps are best suited for overall power benefits and tube amps don't keep up at loud volumes or very dynamic music. My 600watt Nemo amps are best overall with my Summits compared to the 18 watt Jota and 24 watt Carissa SET Art Audio amps I have. But considering the extremes in wattage ratings, it amazes me thats it's actually a close competition between these three amps.

It's all about amp to speaker matching and some days I like apples and other days and choose an orange. Someday, they'll manufacture an Orangapple!

The high output impedance of the Stingray is precisely why it doesn't sound good with the ML's. The Stingray is a pretty mediocre match for current ML speakers. There are a few great SS amps in the 50 watt range that will power all of them just fine.

The Luxman L590 AII (30 wpc, class A) works great
Vintage Mark Levinson ML-2 monos, (25wpc, class A)
Vintage Krell KSA 50 (50 wpc, class A)

The limiting factor to tube amplifiers delivering the kind of current that a well designed SS amplifier is the output transformer....

I run my ascents with 2 x 200 watts in a 20X24' room and it is adequate.

The meager little Stingray probably wasn't the best example and interpreted those numbers that it would be stable at 2 ohms. But Manley is one of the few companies to publish these particular specs. I looked into it and you're right about the vintage Krell KSA 50. It's rated at 50w and muscles out 60 amps of peak current. That's a lot for a 50W amp and all class A. However, the new Krell 402 is a 400W amp and outputs only a modest 37 amps. The Pass Labs XA60.5 is 60W+ of Class A @20 amps. So which is considered to be more powerful regardless of which sounds better?

Low wattage SS amps like these are exceptions and you pay for quality like this.

It be would helpful to the consumer if the industry would standardize and include more specs like these instead of just watts at a specific ohm. My main point is that Wattage rating alone is insufficient for comparing amp power.

Even Peak Current stats are not always good to look at as there are many ways they can measure that stat. What most of them fail to show is duration - if real world, real time or is it measure during a short.

Low wattage SS amps like these are exceptions and you pay for quality like this.

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Agree, and yes those types of amps are pricey, but since some of the posts are talking about getting the best out of our ML's with power, this is the type of quality of product one needs to have.

I use an OCM 500 to drive my Quests - basically an Aragon 8008BB only manufactured in Canada - very well designed amp, and an 8008X3 for center and rears.

I had the 8008's for years. Outstanding amp for its price. A truly high-end amplifier.