ML Production moving

twich54 said:

easy there Alan......that's my job around here ! ....

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You mean you are the comic relief here ?

adanny said:

What would some of you do if you owned Martin Logan? If we generate any good ideas, maybe someone can summarize all the ideas and send a note to the ML CEO signed "From some of your customers"...

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I have every confidence that ML is monitoring this website and this thread.

My take, let's wait and see. Not much we can do about it anyway.

If you recall, once Gayle left the helm, we were wondering if any new, exciting, innovative products would be forthcoming or if R and D was dead.

Then they released the CLX.

GG

I honestly think one of Logans biggest problem is not the origins of it's manufacturing but that nobody know they even exist and that's the truth, just the other day I was explaining my system to somebody I know and after a few pics they where mesmerized by the whole idea of electrostatic panels and two channel music saying " there is a whole other world I did not know even is even out there" keep in mind that this person has spent thousands on other hobbies and interests I know of.I just thought I would throw that in to the mix.

DrJRapp said:

Quite a few here believe the move is being made because of ML problems with their bottom line. I believe that owing to the abrupt nature of the move it is being initiated to keep the lower cost people at Paradigm busy and keep that plant closer to capacity. No consideration was given to the impact on ML quality or the lines would have been "transitioned" one at a time. The ShoreView people are pure numbers crunchers and not audio enthusiasts.

I'm also willing to wager that we will see one or two key people from the current lineup living in Canada very soon.

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I despise number crunchers.

Probably right about the second paragraph as well. Typically when there is a transfer of technology to a new location with personnel unfamiliar with the new-comer products, there are also a few pertinent people from the original site who are asked to "relocate" for an undetermined length of time. As soon as the new location is comfortable with the level of training, the originals are let go. Not always but usually. There could be new technologies to improve the product or newer manufacturing methods and tooling.

Another problem with transfer of technology is the control of Quality. It's hard to control quality if the Quality Assurance group is working out of Lawrence while they are building elsewhere under their own Quality Control. You need to be there to witness and see each and every problem on the spot, not thru a teleconference call.

As Dave (I think) mentioned earlier, we'll have to wait and see. My gut feeling is that the initial products out of the new location may be good if supervised by relocated skilled Martin Logan personnel, but after they have gone, the quality level will wander a bit before leveling off to an acceptable level.

A quote off the box from Audio Research Corporation..."Designed and crafted in Plymouth, Minnesota U.S.A."

I like quality, I like a well built product. And I will pay a premium for what I see is necessary for a quality product.

Ahh, no sense in getting pessimistic about this...let's see what happens. I do feel sorry for the folks that are loosing their job at ML. No one needs that, especially now a days.

Well, if the quality level does drop off a cliff, at least Roger Sanders still makes a great ESL (in the heartland of America, no less). Now if we could just get him to go back to a curvilinear design to widen that sweet spot a little . . . :devil:

Where are the SoundLabs ESL's produced? Anybody know?

The more I think and read about this turn of events turns my stomach in light of the advertising. And they want me to drop $25K for the CLX while putting our folks out of a job.

Gordon

Gordon said:

Where are the SoundLabs ESL's produced? Anybody know?

The more I think and read about this turn of events turns my stomach in light of the advertising. And they want me to drop $25K for the CLX while putting our folks out of a job.

Gordon

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that's what I am thinking as well...

This makes me ill... I LOVE ML and I LOVE THEM IN KANSAS!!!!

And frankly I am NOT a fan of their NON-ESL line...sorry guys, it is the ESL panels that REALLY make these speakers so special!

We're so used to production being moved elsewhere here, and with a large number of British "names" no longer owned by the British, we've become complacent about it to some extent.

Not good, really. Pretty soon we simply won't know how to make anything anymore.

I wish ML luck with it, though.

My country has a funny track record

Jet fighters are designed and assembled,hi tech innovations and industry,but my country-Israel-is still unable to produce a decent automobile or motorcycle or scooter or bicycle,let alone stereo components or speakers.
But,there are a few individuals who make their own tube amps and DACs.
There is a price that you pay for globalization,and we have begun to pay it.
That said,I am grateful for my 20 odd years with my CLSs,they have been challenging and rewarding.

mcmd said:

Regrettably, increased sales does not necessarily translate into increased profit. In fact, in many cases, the opposite results.

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Who cares about increased sales, OR increased profit. Sony makes more sales and profit than ML - is that what we want?

User211 said:

We're so used to production being moved elsewhere here, and with a large number of British "names" no longer owned by the British, we've become complacent about it to some extent.

Not good, really. Pretty soon we simply won't know how to make anything anymore.

I wish ML luck with it, though.

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Yep Justin - same goes on here - we do all the development work and as soon as a business starts turning a profit we sell it off overseas quick smart, chasinig the quick buck. Shame.

Gordon said:

Where are the SoundLabs ESL's produced? Anybody know?


Gordon

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Soundlab has a small factory in Utah. 4-6 guys work at the factory part producing the speakers. They have a 3rd party, also probably in Utah - or not too far, producing the latices/ panels. The Soundlab production guys then put in the electrostatic membranes in the panels and put in the wiring/ insulation.

It is a real niche product, and probably sells on the same levels as the CLX.

I am not sure you can blame ML too much for trying to save costs. Real unemployment is near 20%, when you consider people who have stopped looking for work. Sales are not very strong, I am sure, as the wealth effect of a strong real estate market a long gone. So if they have to move production to Canada or go under, it's a no brainer decision.

The real question is: how well can ML do R&D with the production facilities residing in Canada? That depends on whether the guys in Kansas still have the machines and the expertise to operate them. This can allow the speaker designers to create prototypes fast and try out various design ideas, listen, re-design, re-create prototypes, etc. Alternatively, they can possibly get various panel and crossover components designed in Kansas and shipped there from Canada fast to keep experimenting with various designs. ML success is all about keeping this critical innovation chain alive.

Audioseduction said:

It says ML will retain quality control in Lawrence but how can you really provide QC if production is in another country?

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I didn't read through the entire thread so I am not sure if this has been answered but Martin Logan QC's all of their speakers that are manufactured overseas. They even go so far as to have speakers shipped in, QC'd and then ship them back overseas to distributors.

David Matz said:

Real unemployment is near 20%, when you consider people who have stopped looking for work. .

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David, that number is inflated........remember the 4-6% hardcore, unemployed, out-to-beat-the-system low lifes. Realistic unemployment is 10-15%

David Matz said:

I am not sure you can blame ML too much for trying to save costs.

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I don't think ML is trying to cut costs. I think Shoreline is trying to transform ML from a boutique customer-oriented high end speaker manufacturer into something more along the lines of what they have done with Paradigm. If you look at the evolution of the product lines since Shoreline took over, you notice much more lower-end home theater oriented and in-wall, in ceiling type speakers. We now have the motion series coming online. And did you notice there are three different models of the lower end sub (Dynamo) now?

They are also producing more diversity of product at the mid and higher end as well, but are pretty drastically bumping up the prices on those models as they do.

They have now divided ML speakers into five different "series" of product (plus the subs), each oriented toward different markets, and you can choose from a variety of price points within each series. That is exactly what they do with Paradigm, which has tons of different series of products with multiple speakers to choose from in each series.

I am sure this is very smart business management and is intended to grow their investment. I don't think it has anything to do with the current state of the economy. They are taking steps now to maximize their investment over the long term and grow ML into a company that mass-produces a diverse product line.

My concern is that much of what we love about Martin Logan speakers is going to get lost in the process. I have seen it happen with too many companies that have gone through this type of transformation. The individuals that made ML great are going to slowly disappear, one by one, and all that will be left of the old company will be the brand name. The new company will make a greater variety of speakers at all price points and mass-produce the heck out of them. I expect that quality and customer service will both suffer, but who knows? All we can do is wait and watch and see what happens. (And analyze it to death, of course )

twich54 said:

David, that number is inflated........remember the 4-6% hardcore, unemployed, out-to-beat-the-system low lifes. Realistic unemployment is 10-15%

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I have to agree with that. At the end of the Clinton era, anybody that really wanted a job could have had one, and we still had something along the lines of 4% to 5% unemployment.

I live in Mississauga and for the life of me, I can't see how moving to Mississauga would save them any money. Adjacent to Toronto, it's not a cheap place to live or do business (relative to their current site).

They must have other manufacturing facilities here that are underutilized.
Hopefully the quality will keep up and the Canadian prices would be more in line with what the current US prices are. One can only hope.

MickeyVee said:

I live in Mississauga and for the life of me, I can't see how moving to Mississauga would save them any money. Adjacent to Toronto, it's not a cheap place to live or do business (relative to their current site).

They must have other manufacturing facilities here that are underutilized.
Hopefully the quality will keep up and the Canadian prices would be more in line with what the current US prices are. One can only hope.

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you Canadians are always thinking of yourselves lol