Problem with my new Prefaces? Or is it?

rw_designs said:

I just joined the forum this weekend having bought a beautiful new set of the Preface series. I cannot believe how great these speakers sound. I will post some pics as soon as I get settled in I was at it all weekend with the listening room.

Here is something I noticed last night. I was listening to FM public radio "Hearts of Space" and "Pipe Dreams". On several occasions during complex crescendo's the ATF on the right speaker would present a slight buzz and very briefly but enough for me to go sit in front of it and listen. Sure enough there it was again during high treble passages. It was tough to tell if it was the program or in the ATF itself. It was a distorted kind of mechanical buzz sound I heard not like the digital noise we have all heard on cable. I checked the other speaker and had it there as well on occasion but not as loud. This was during an FM broadcast at maybe 2/3 volume on a Crown D-150 power amp (180wrms/ch), Carver C-4000 preamp and a Sansui TU-717 tuner. The speakers love this amp.

The night before when I first set them up I listened FM and then to some vinyl and do not recall this problem at all but it was during my couple of hours with them and there were many distractions with placement etc. The speakers were just amazing. I did listen to FM until very late and I just cannot remember if I had the problem that night. I wish I could but I cannot.

I called Martin Logan this morning and they think that it could be in the mix of the FM broadcast somewhere at the source and digital in nature. They asked me to try different media and put the speakers through their paces. I have not heard a CD yet so I could do that tonight.

Has anyone any thoughts on this? I thought there might be a problem with the ATF diaphragms mechanically when I first heard it. ML says to keep at it and keep them advised. I so dont want to have to ship these for repair I just got them.

Any insight here will be appreciated.
Thank You!
Ron

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Jimna said:

i hope this is a fluke in the FM signal, but this my gut feeling too.

enjoy the speakers, i am!

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HamEJH said:

I had a similar experience with my new Prefaces. I was listening to the new Dave Mathews Band CD, and on one particular track I kept hearing a buzzing noise. I thought maybe this also had something to do with the ATF technology, like how a kazoo works, vibrating a thin film to create a buzzing noise. But the sound was only very apparent on this one track. I demoed this noise to a friend and he confirmed that it was nothing more than the acoustic guitar. I guess the low guitar string can sometimes make a rattling noise when plucked. So in my case it was nothing more than hearing things I had never heard before.

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rw_designs said:

I experienced the same with a cello passage last night on a CD. It was some kind of noise from the instrument. I also listened to several LP's on my Thorens turntable. It has outfitted an AT-440mla cartridge which can be shrill in the highs. The Prefaces were very revealing of that cartridges characterisitics which are sometimes way too bright.

I did not hear the distorted intermitted noise I heard on FM Sunday night, not at all last night. But I am going to keep listening as this is difficult to confirm as being just a random effect from the FM. I need to be sure so I can rellax with these speakers. I Love them. Thank you so much for your help...
Ron

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roberto said:

Hola...it is time to you to work on your turntable. It looks to me that what you are listening is vertical angle distortion. Also, the overhang is very important. The vertical tracking angle is usually 15ْ and the overhang is the right position of the needle at the center of the groove. High frequency distortion is very easy to listen with your speakers. If you have at least one tracking playing nice, then the speakers are not the fault. Use the right weight, sometimes helps a lot to increase a little bit the tracking weight, read the manual of your cartridge and use the maximum tracking weight specified. The 15ْ is the angle that your cartridge needle is to the groove. Using washers to the secure screws to the head-shell you can change this angle. Also, only play your records once a day. If you play them more, you can increase the groove thickness and listen more noise than music. This is due to the high temperature. Why the needle must be diamond tip? Because of the high temperature that it is when it is playing the groove of any record. It is the only earth material that can stand such high temperature, and because of this, the needle is somehow melting the record surface. Vinyl has a physical property to have memory position, and when it is melted due to this high temperature, when it returns to normal temperature, the groove gets again the shape, but if you keep playing this record several time, then the shape memory is erased and adopts the new shape, (wider) causing this distortion!...please forgive my spelling...I hope that I could made myself clear enough to explain this. Happy listening, regards from Costa Rica, and trust your ears,
Roberto.

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esowden said:

FWIW - I'm hearing things in my CDs I've never noticed before. It's like hearing 'em for the first time.:music:

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rw_designs said:

Roberto,
You are correct in all respects here and have amazed me how well you understand my system I did change the tracking angle like this. I noticed the arm was at a slight angle tail down so I removed the mat I had placed over the stock Thorens mat and replaced it with a new Rega P3 mat. This was a change of 1mm down at the stylus. The arm is more level to be seen and the shrill highs went away. It was something I had not noticed with the old Advents I had been using. Not so much anyways. It is much much better. Yes that cartridge is very sensitive to VTA and I hope I have it where it belongs now. Time will tell.
I understnd your meaning on the heat of the diamond and record grooves. I will pay close attention to it now.

This week for the Martin Logans I am buying the Cambridge Audio Azur 840 Integrated amp and the 840C Upsampling CD player. Have a good deal on them as well. This will take the system to the next level I am very excited about it.

Your writing and support here has been wonderful please stay around.
Thank You,
Ron

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roberto said:

Thanks Ron...another thing that you have to take in consideration, is cables. Use the type called mono-crystal copper. Do not use silver, because ithe sound will be too bright. There are several cable companies that offer this kind of copper. Try it, you might like it...check in Ebay for harmonictech copper cables like an example. They are expensive, but your ears can tell why. Visit www.harmonictech.com and read their way that they build the cables. This is important too. Your new speakers are very reveling and they show easy all the system links. Use the cable as tone control. You are going to have a lot of fun with these findings. Quality has no regret!...it is better quality than quality...happy listening, trust your ears!!!
Roberto.

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rw_designs said:

Roberto, Thank you for the tip on the cables. I am investing in the best I can afford as they do make such a big difference. I will check these out. I recently bought AudioQuest Sidewinders for a new SACD player and they actually had to be connected in the direction of the arrows from source to amp. Solid copper cable. I did not see that in the instructions and had one channel backwards but still sounded beautiful. I have since corrected that I could not believe it!

I just fixed some other problems on my Thorens by using a genuine Thorens belt for the table. I was having "WOW" in the sound enough to annoy. The Pitch is near perfect now I will never buy aftermarket belts again.

On the speakers. I have never heard one strange sound from them when listening to vinyl since we last talked on this. Even FM has been OK for the most part although more revealing of noise. I did however hear that buzz on a Telarc DDD CD I bought over the weekend. I played the same passage over and over and it happened every time. I have a new SACD Marantz and the noise was from a redbook CD not an SACD. I have just gotten this player the SA8003 and listen a few hours every night. So far so good except for the one CD. Seems like this is some type of digital noise as you mentioned early on. It just made me so nervous. Now one at a time I am looking for a new amplifier for the system. It may be Cambridge Azur 840A or Rotel/Anthem still looking. I need to upgrade from the Crown/Carver vintage I have. I think...

I will look into the IC for the Thorens you recommend. Thank You again for your great help. Sorry I have been away so busy with all these system changes and very focused on my Prefaces. I did not forget!

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roberto said:

Hola Ron...Just keep in mind this...your speakers are not bad...they are showing a problem in your system or in the recording...just enjoy what you are listening...big stage, well defined musical instruments and your favorite musician(s) playing for you,...there, in your own place. I with a very happy listening,
Roberto.

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rw_designs said:

Roberto, Thank You

The cables are very much fun to check for the system. I am running stranded copper the famous brand 16awg on the Prefaces. I have the Audioquest on the Marantz SACD with the arrows. They are directional. So far so good. Again, listening to vinyls last night no problems. I keep my records very clean and the stylus I do clean every six sides of records or so. I will check with a 10x loupe soon. Yes they get dirty from the heat and baking on. I like to keep the diamond nice.

I listened to two SACD's last night again the Telarc classical DDD series. Again I heard the noise briefly during complex passage. Like a buzzing kazoo sound briefly. I have faith the speakers are OK, I just wish someone could hear it too and say yes I have heard that its the program. I am approaching the 30 days where I can return the speakers and have Best Buy get another set for me, after that I am in trouble with having to do warranty.

I believe you what you say they are fine but still wish these problems were not here. Never on my records, just a beautiful new Marantz SACD and on that FM live broadcast way back when. I am sure it is something I will have to live with eventually. Other than this the speakers sound beautiful always.

Promise me they are ok Roberto??? I wish you could hear it the buzz mabe you have before?

A man recommended the Emotiva XPA2 and USP-1 amplifiers for my system to replace the Crown (180W and Carver 30 yrs old now). Is this OK? This would be better headroom as the Crown sometimes clips at 180 watts while the speakers want more.
I really appreciate your help, especially with my worry on the speakers. Your insight has been so valuable to me and I am thankful.
I am sure you know that Roberto you seem to enjoy the music and equipment like I do.

Thank You again.
Ron

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esowden said:

It sounds as though you're hearing artifacts from the recordings themselves. If the problem was a speaker issue it wouldn't be so "song specific" - every similar transient would create the noise you're hearing.

There are a lot of CDs (HDCD and SACDs as well) that suffer from poor recordings and/or mixes. I won't even get into the number of poor pressings out there. A lot of recordings are mixed with feedback, over-limit distortion, etc., simply because that's all the engineer had to work with. Chances are - that's what you're hearing. Your speakers aren't buzzing - you're just hearing a recording of the buzz.

My first experience with that issue was a pair of Cerwin-Vegas in the '80s. Listening to the first track on Boston's first album. As the song began - I'd hear a "crackle." Thinking it was the speakers - I exchanged them. After hooking up the replacements - I still heard it. This was a CD - it was "digital" - there was no way it could have that kind of an artifact. (oh to still be that naive) 20 years and 4 stereo systems later guess what - it's still there. :ROFL:

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rw_designs said:

I want to believe this is true. I did play a passage over and over the other night that had the buzz and it was always there same place and time. Heard it on another SACD last night on another passage all together. I heard it on my other CD player and FM before I got the SACD.

I just wonder if these are all similar transients that are showing a weakness in the speaker. Probably the thing to do is shut off the speakers and listen with headphones next time I hear the buzz and see what I hear then.
Thank you for chiming in, thank you!

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esowden said:

If you're hearing it regardless of the source (or volume) - it's the recording.

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