Power Conditioners - Imaging (Summit)

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David100

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Hello,
I am using a pair or ML Summits and I am very happy with the sound a get from them, but I think there is still room for sound improvement in my setup, especially imaging wise.

I am thinking about buying a power conditioning system to feed the speakers, like the Power Plant Premier (PPP) from PS Audio.

What do you think about power conditioners ? Do they make a noticeable difference ? Do they improve the imaging - for example ?

Thanks
 
David100 said:
Do they improve the imaging - for example ?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Room set-up, speaker location, interaction, acoustics, etc...... those are the things that will improve your imaging.
 
Thanks Dave,

I should have completed my question a little bit. I know room treatment and positioning are very important. And indeed, this is something I have to work on in my room.

But my question here is specific to the power conditioning. I hear some people saying they make a huge difference (imaging, but also better bass, more details, better everything).

I am curious about what ML users are thinking about these devices.
 
David100 said:
Thanks Dave,

I should have completed my question a little bit. I know room treatment and positioning are very important. And indeed, this is something I have to work on in my room.

But my question here is specific to the power conditioning. I hear some people saying they make a huge difference (imaging, but also better bass, more details, better everything).

I am curious about what ML users are thinking about these devices.
Click to expand...

I agree with both of you that setup and room treatments will make the biggest difference, so spend money there before anywhere.

To answer your question specifically, I have found that many good power conditioners will take out the noise. You will hear more musical detail and better flow to the music - which will accomplish what you are looking for.

Out of the 3 or 4 brands I have heard, Running Springs is by far the best. It works exceptionally well with power cords from Shunyata, Transparent, and Acoustic Zen. Make sure you audition RS. Enjoy!
 
David,

IMO, if your incoming AC is marginal, you'll likely hear more of a difference than if it's of good quality.

This is one of those hardware items that demands an in home audition since the results are so variable. Make sure it's a no obligation to buy audition.

Assuming your system is of appropriate quality, you should be able to hear the PLC's affect and judge accordingly.

Also, the price range for these devices are extremely disparate.

GG
 
Chances are your AC is dirty and a power conditioner will have a noticeable affect on the musical presentation by your Summits.

To answer your question as to experience with Power Conditioners, I have used up to 4 PS Audio Power Plant Premiers and also Running Springs Audio (RSA) models called Jaco, Danielle and Dmitri. The PPP is nice but it does limit the dynamics and power on the amps. The RSA units do not limit the dynamics or power, so if you are limited in budget you can use the PPP on components and then use an RSA unit on the amp.

If you use Audiogon, you should be able to get both for 2.5 to 3K. Or if you don't have a huge amp say 100 watts per channel then you could get one RSA Danielle because they have 10 outlets and use it for components and your amp. Good luck, whatever path you take to a quieter background which is most likely the first thing you will notice when you use a power conditioner.
 
Power Conditioners: Do they help?

David100 said:
Hello,
I am using a pair or ML Summits and I am very happy with the sound a get from them, but I think there is still room for sound improvement in my setup, especially imaging wise.

I am thinking about buying a power conditioning system to feed the speakers, like the Power Plant Premier (PPP) from PS Audio.

What do you think about power conditioners ? Do they make a noticeable difference ? Do they improve the imaging - for example ?

Thanks
Click to expand...


First and foremost, you should consider dedicated lines for your equipment. That is the beginning of getting away from noise induced by other appliances in your home. There is a one-time expense of having an electrician install them but once done, you don't have to go there again.
I have used power conditioners for about 20 years. The first order of business is to make sure that they have surge protection so that a power outage and restoration does not fry your valuable equipment. Next, you should consider those devices that neither add nor subtract from the basic sound of your system, in other words, neutral, which many are not.
If you are considering plugging your power amps into a power conditioner, it should not be current-limiting or the air will go out of your system.
Good conditioners are not cheap so you have consider relative values for return on investment:
I have heard Audience (top of the line is 8000.00 USD): excellent but very pricey. Running Springs Audio actually makes much of the Audience hardware and is about half the price. Still expensive but worth it. I have not used Shunyata but I have used Nordost Thors for several years. They are about 3000.00 USD each but are extremely neutral and do wonderful things for a system.
If you go the way of a power conditioner, your electronics will benefit far more than your speakers. However, if you get one with 10 or 12 inputs, you can dedicate two to your ESLs.
Finally, if you get a power conditioner, please link it up with a good power cord. Most stock cords are crap and diminish the benefits of a pc.
Hope this helps
 
I agree with what David and Babydoc said.

Put in dedicated lines. I have 2 that are 20 amp circuits, 10 guage wire going to Oyaide R1 outlets.That will clean things up considerably.

I found conditioning made a vast improvement to my Odyssey's. I am running Foundation Research LC 1's powercords that have a built in conditioner, these go to an Audience Adept Response R12a conditioner.

This powercord from Blue circle is similar to my Fondation Research cords made specifically for ML's http://www.bluecircle.com/index.php?page_id=9552

Cheers, Greg
 
Last edited:
David,

Point of clarification.

I have all my electronics plugged into a dedicated 20 amp circuit via my Furman.

I also have both my speakers plugged into a dedicated 20 amp circuit without a PLC.

I wouldn't necessarily assume that your AC is "dirty". Only you can make that determination. All locations will vary.

Having said that, Babydoc's post is succinct and summarizes the various issues quite well.

GG
 
Hi Gorden,

Nice system you have there . I was wondering if thoses are the stock ML powercords to your summits?

The Foundation Research LC 1's are no longer made.They now make a model LC 10 which would do quite well on a pair of summits or the cord provided in my last post.

The authorized ML dealer I bought my Odyssey's from said you won't hear those speakers properly until you put the Foundation cords on them and he wasn't even a dealer for Foundation Research. I took his word on it, found a set and was very happy I listened to him.

Cheers, Greg
 
Last edited:
Hi Greg,

Thank you for your comments.

As far as anyone saying you haven't heard product X without product Y in the loop I'm, with all due respect, a bit leary of those blanket assertions.

Summit power cords are the Shyunta Venoms I believe. Music Direct had a special on the product awhile ago. I bought them for $100 / each.

Despite my affinity for "tweaks", I have a hard time justifying elaborate power cords and / or PLC's for any ML speaker.

YMMV.

Gordon
 
Through trial and error, I have come to the conclusion that it is a mistake to plug amps into most, if not all, power conditioners. It seriously degrades the sound. Note that ML's with powered bass modules have onboard amps, and the same logic applies. I have upgraded power cords on my ML Summits, and they are plugged directly into dedicated 20 amp circuits with isolated grounds.

I use the same Furman PC's that GG uses, and they actually have an outlet which stores current specifically for the needs of amps. Not good enough. I have experimented with my amps and speakers plugged directly into the Furman vs. directly into the wall outlets, and the difference is unmistakable. The wall outlets provide better dynamics and overall sound quality. I keep all my other components plugged into the Furman, but the amps and speakers go directly into the wall outlet, with upgraded power cords. This provides the best sound in my room, which is already well treated for acoustics.

I haven't noticed as big a difference with my Ascents, which do not have an onboard amp, so those with the older ML's may have a different opinion on this issue than those with the ML's containing powered woofers.
 
1. If you can, see what power you have coming into your house. Ensure that both sides of the 240 are at 120. You have two 120 busses that combine to make 240 for your bigger devices.

2. Use dedicated lines. If you use two, they shouldn't be on the same buss.

3. Use hospital grade recepticles. In other words make the best connection possible.

Here is the magic part ;) :bowdown:

4. Find good power conditioners. You will get plenty of conflicting advice from everyone.
* Regenerators are fine but don't work well for big current hungry amps.

* Be sure that there is some mechanism tells you if your unit took a hit.

* Passive units should be transparent. Dmitri is the hottest new name. Shunyata seems to be well respected.

* PS Audio is very good but some say don't hold up well. I think there are too many bells and whistles.

5. You may feel the need to get power cords.

* Get a good brand that has been around.
# Signal cable is a good modestly priced brand that many respect.

* I use the Cable Company a lot since they have a good lending library policy (you get to try it before you buy it).

* Read a lot, some brands will work better for your equipment (don't ask me why)

6. Take your time.

7. Be sure that your room and speakers are set up properly. Remember, that your room is the most important component in your system
 
Rich said:
Through trial and error, I have come to the conclusion that it is a mistake to plug amps into most, if not all, power conditioners. It seriously degrades the sound.
Click to expand...

Hi Rich,

That was my experience also until I tried Running Springs per Jeff's suggestion. Robert Harley of Absolute Sound selected it as his reference for the same reasons. Do give it a listen if you are curious.

Best regards,
David
 
robertawillisjr said:
2. Use dedicated lines. If you use two, they shouldn't be on the same buss.
Click to expand...

All good suggestions Robert, although I will take exception with #2.....

From what I was told by a fellow audiophile that happens to be an electrician for our local power Co (PECO), it is best to isolate all ones noisy circuits(dimmers, appliances, etc) to one downleg (buss) and put your audio on the other.

I suppose we can argue till the cows come home if it REALLY makes a difference but regardless, that's what I did.
 
twich54 said:
All good suggestions Robert, although I will take exception with #2.....

From what I was told by a fellow audiophile that happens to be an electrician for our local power Co (PECO), it is best to isolate all ones noisy circuits(dimmers, appliances, etc) to one downleg (buss) and put your audio on the other.

I suppose we can argue till the cows come home if it REALLY makes a difference but regardless, that's what I did.
Click to expand...

I have my digital (to include TV and Cable box) on one side and analog on the other.

Even when "off" the DVR disc tends to have a mind of its own and is noisy (RFI wise). Sometimes I just unplug it.

But your way sounds good.
 
Rich said:
Through trial and error, I have come to the conclusion that it is a mistake to plug amps into most, if not all, power conditioners.

Hi Rich,
The Audience Adept Response conditioner is non current limiting to the amp. It is one of the rare few conditioners that are okay to plug an amp into without any degenerating effects, only improvements. It was pricey , but well worth every penny.
Cheers, Greg
Click to expand...
 
Well Guys,

Maybe I'm mistaken but I have to ask the question.

How many of these high price PLC's provide surge / brownout protection?

If they don't and you have a major burp from your local AC supplier and your equipment is damaged as a result, what would you think of the "value" of the PLC if you had to spend many dollars to repair the gear and many hours uninstalling, packing, shipping, waiting, and reinstalling the gear?

GG

PS: Rich, I will again try plugging my amp into the wall but I didn't notice any negative effects when I initially installed my Furman, which I believe is a different model than the one you purchased. Don't know if that matters or not but I'll try it and share my observations.
 
Last edited:
i've heard similar Dave. you're not out to lunch. and if you're have dedicated lines put in, and you have spare spots on both legs, then you might as well put them on the one without the fridge, photocopier, dimmers....

ah heck, i pulled 6ga down to the room for a 60A subpanel...
 
I recently purchased a RSA Duke power conditioner for my CJ Premier 350 amp. Living in Tampa FL (lightning capital of the world), I emailed RSA before purchase, and specifically asked about surge protection (since their website doesn't really address that issue). Dan, at RSA, was most helpful (also answering other questions of mine), and I guess it's probably OK to quote his response here...
... I have designed in several safety devices to protect your equipment. I developed a new type of surge guard in our factory here in Anaheim. By using different materials than a common MOV, I've managed to give you amazing protection without effecting both audio and video. It is a proprietary device that we have a patent on. We call this device a DMS filter and it WILL appear on our updated website. The circuit breaker is also a modified/proprietary design that insures that in the event of a catastrophic failure, nothing gets past the RSA DUKE, thus protecting your components...
Click to expand...

​
As for the overall sound quality, unlike other (cheaper) conditioners/surge protectors I've used, the Duke has no deleterious effect on sonics whatsoever. Whether it actually improves the sound is hard to tell, as I now have a dedicated 20A circuit, with virtually no noise/grunge to be filtered. At some point I should switch back to the 15A circuit I was using previously, which caused all sorts of electrical gremlins and spurious noise, for comparison.
 
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