Re-Kindle the flames ?????

MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum

Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

twich54

Forum Administrator
Joined
Nov 25, 2005
Messages
6,939
Reaction score
282
Location
SE Pa
Well no need to start (again) the 'Great Analog vs. Digital debate' but for those that have not seen this little diddy give it a 'whirl' ......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrJBEmz5teA

IMO, had not the recording industry so grossly taken advantage of 'compression' this argument would be all but mute in most circles.
 
Why again

Hi Dave,

Why do we want to and / or why do you have a need to discuss this any further?

Gordon
 
I tried to view that video and was told (and I quote) "This video contains content from PBS, who has decided to block it in your country." :-(

Thanks, PBS...
 
I really think the argument around hear is whether our digital players and cd's are as good or better than the records not weather the original recording is better done digitally or analog. I have records that sound unbelievable that where digitally remastered but take the same re mastered product and produce it on a cd and their is a big loss.
 
Why do we want to and / or why do you have a need to discuss this any further?Gordon

Good morning Gordon....hey take your sun glasses off, they're blocking your vision !.......look (again) at my opening sentence !

Regardless, if YOU don't want to be part of the thread it's simple.........don't post !

I merely put the vid link up for those that might be interested, that's it.......
end of discussion.
 
I tried to view that video and was told (and I quote) "This video contains content from PBS, who has decided to block it in your country." :-(

Thanks, PBS...

opps....sorry Rich, can't explain that one ??
 
Dave, good find, that’s a very interesting video.

I’ll stick to the main point of why the recording industry shot itself in the foot with their releases over the past decade+.

To me, the issue is not how it was recorded (analog vs digital), as both can deliver pretty amazing master tapes.
Where everything can and does go wrong is in the ‘mastering’ process for each output format.

The overuse of compression on the CD mastering is astounding, with many discs having less than 15dB of dynamic range on them, and this from a medium that supports close to 100dB dynamic range.

This is strictly a choice by the record company to ‘compete’ for audibility in cars, boom boxes, radio, etc.

To help resolve this for myself, I have a friend who has a professional recording studio, and I got him to give me the ProTools HD 24/96 stereo mix-down of a 128-track master of a 3 minute song.
He then also gave me the same song from the ‘mastering engineer’ who generated the CD master for reproduction as well as a physical copy of the commercial CD.

So I got home and had the following files to compare:
  • PCM 24/96 stereo-mixdown with no post-processing
  • PCM 16/44 stereo ‘CD master’ file used to create the CD
  • PCM 16/44 stereo WAV file ripped from the physical CD
  • MP3 160Kbps VBR converted from the ripped WAV file

All files were played back on my Denon AVP’s internal file transport (which is clock-synched to the DAC’s, so this about as ‘perfect’ as digital can get).

The results:

PCM 24/96 stereo-mixdown with no post-processing
The clear winner here. Amazing clarity, every instrument and vocal clearly distinguishable. Dynamic range to kill for (even though this was pop-music). Sounded just like what I heard on the headphones plugged into the ProTools deck.
If all music were distributed like this, no audiophile would be complaining.

PCM 16/44 stereo ‘CD master’ file used to create the CD
OK, this is where it got interesting. Lost about 10dB in dynamic range, as this is their ‘standard’ mix setting. Also, there is a bit of EQ in the mastering, slight roll-off in the highs, a bit of lift in the 60 to 120hz range. I’m guessing that’s for radio and small-system compatability.
But clearly, this is not the same thing that came out of ProTools. Very easy to distinguish from the previous version.

PCM 16/44 stereo WAV file ripped from the physical CD
There must be further downstream processing, as this one is not bit identical to the ‘CD master’, can’t tell if it’s more compression or EQ, but it’s a little but different. Hard to tell if I wasn’t looking for it.

MP3 160Kbps VBR converted from the ripped WAV file
I can usually hear compression artifacts buried in the song if I have good reference to the uncompressed version, and relative to the 24/96 track, this is night and day. One can spot this version in an instant.
But relative to the WAV file, it’s a bit more subtle, yet still distinguishable.

So HOW a piece of music makes it to YOUR system has much more to do with how it SOUNDS than the original recording format.

For instance, that 24/96 PCM stereo mix-down, put on a ¼ Tape at 15ips might sound better than the CD. (Although tape saturation will limit the dynamic range a bit and/or raise the noise floor).

Which brings me to repeat: it’s a shame SACD and DVD-Audio are on their way out, as those formats were the only ones to actually deliver the equivalent quality found in the recording studio.

But even those formats, the recording engineer can still screw up the mix: E.g the Genesis SACD re-issues (with too much compression and EQ).

So again, it’s about HOW the mediums are used not so much WHICH medium.
 
Very well summed up Jonathan. It's a travesty what happens to most music in the mixing board these days - for exactly the reasons you stated at the top.
 
Good insight Jonathan for those of us who do not know what goes on behind the scenes in the mixing process.

Glen
 
Dave, good find, that’s a very interesting video.

I’ll stick to the main point of why the recording industry shot itself in the foot with their releases over the past decade+.

To me, the issue is not how it was recorded (analog vs digital), as both can deliver pretty amazing master tapes.
Where everything can and does go wrong is in the ‘mastering’ process for each output format.

The overuse of compression on the CD mastering is astounding, with many discs having less than 15dB of dynamic range on them, and this from a medium that supports close to 100dB dynamic range.

This is strictly a choice by the record company to ‘compete’ for audibility in cars, boom boxes, radio, etc.

like I said they do something to it after the recording too mess it all up
 
Last edited:
And now for some opinion on Vinyl, and why I don’t use it.

Just like mastering to CD, mastering to Vinyl requires some pre-processing to perform the following:

  • RIAA Equalization – Mandated EQ curves that cuts lows and boosts highs
  • Dynamic range limiting (or compression) – The range can’t exceed the physical constraints of the medium (60dB at best)
Depending on recording studio, they’ll do further pre-processing for LP’s. But assuming the above is all that’s done, we clearly see that the full dynamic range of a 24/96 master track (or 1” tape master), can’t flow through an LP transport system without severe changes dictated by the medium.

Never mind all the headaches that trying to achieve best-possible reproduction from LP entails. Our own threads on the topic go on for a good bit.

Now, I grant that many have a preference for the sound, and enjoy the mechanical tweaking. That’s fine, but I don’t agree it’s closer to the actual master. It can’t be.

What I do believe is that many LP re-issues these days are mastered with much more care than their CD counterparts, and that comes through in the playback. But it’s the mastering, not the medium that’s the difference.
 
Last edited:
Tell you what Dave.

We'll arm wrestle at RMAF 2010 and settle this for good. :devil:

I'll start taking some digital steroids in preparation for the event.

Take care.

Gordon
 
Tell you what Dave.

We'll arm wrestle at RMAF 2010 and settle this for good. :devil:

I'll start taking some digital steroids in preparation for the event.

Take care.

Gordon
Gordon in 6 months!
 

Attachments

  • black steroid man.jpg
    black steroid man.jpg
    21.2 KB · Views: 165
Nice Watch Gordon, yeah it's real, but is it digital or analog?
 
Oh my................I had better hit the gym hard over the next ten months ! ....LOL ! .......certianly No 'digital compression' there !!!
 
Back
Top