CLX vs SummitX vs Magico V3 - anyone?

Glad you liked the YG's...

One of the only cone speakers I've ever heard that has the coherency, detail and delicacy of a panel, with the added slam of a cone speaker.

And I have to believe some of that is the 911, it's a pretty fantastic amp.

I think he was talking about the M5, not the YG.

GG

Spectral,

Congratulations. How long is the wait on the new equipment?

David Matz said:

Spectral,

Congratulations. How long is the wait on the new equipment?

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3 months for the amps. The YG Acoustics audition will come soon, but I am no longer in the market for better speakers - not that I could afford the YGs or the Magico M5's, and I just can't fit the CLX's in my home.

I hope others will also get to experience the M5's at some point. BTW, I never got the impression that the M5's presentation was laid back, as the dealer had originally proclaimed. If nothing else, it was anything but... a true milestone in loudspeaker design in my view. Too bad I passed every opportunity to audition the ML Statement e2 years ago... it would have been interesting to compare.

YG's Anat Reference II & Burmester 911 MkIII

I spent a couple of hours recently listening to this combo, driven by a Meridian 808.2 CD player, in someone else's system (obviously set up according to his preferences, but with my source material). I am looking forward to Jeff's review of the speakers, and since I can only comment on the sound of the entire system from this short experience, I hope you won't mind the following ruminations...

The sound was mostly impressive. Very electrostatic-like qualities; nice soundstage but not gigantic; completely disappear; thrilling and palpable midrange, with you-are-there characteristics on some recordings; not the last word in low-level resolution, certainly not what I am used to; somewhat electronic sounding; powerful enough and articulate bass; very well balanced sound, just a tad recessed midrange though for my liking; darker sounding cymbals, not realistic at all (at least with the material I used). With the evaluation being so short I can't tell if I could live with these speakers myself. What I do know is that I still prefer the overall sound of my system even w/o the new Spectral monos in yet (they are to arrive later this month).

Since in this thread I discuss other mega-buck speakers albeit driven by different electronics and in different rooms, I'll try to briefly compare them with the Anat's as well, with all applicable disclaimers (source material was the same). First the Magico V3, which just can't compete in my opinion with the Anat's - and the price difference speaks for itself; I would say the Anat offers a more realistic presentation. On the other end of the spectrum there is the M5. I really like the bigger sound the M5's make, being able to move more air, and the low level resolution is simply phenomenal, offering a gigantic walk-around soundstage. I think the M5's have pushed the envelope to a level that the competition is struggling to match.

So are the YG's the best speakers in the world, even if what YG means is the best measuring speakers in the world? Measurements are one thing and probably not that important, as we've learned over decades of debating this question. So are they the best sounding speakers? No, I think there are better ones like the M5's.

The real question, though, for ML fans is how do they fare against the CLX, from the upper bass on up, so I am looking forward to Jeff's review. My guess is that the CLX's you-are-there presentation will tip the scale.

Dude, do not believe everything you read. The YG are anything but the " best measuring speakers in the world". Not to mention even decent sounding. After reading Dorgay rave, I rushed out to hear these. With Krell top gear, it was hardly bearable. Harsh and glary, over damped and top totally disengaged from the bass module. I felt like listening to a bad PA system. It was hard to keep a polite smile. The guy who own the setup was in haven. Sometime I wonder what is wrong with some people (Dorgay runs an audio magazine??). If you look at some of the YG measurements posted, you will notice an unacceptable level of THD at moderate level. Of-axis response is also rather poor. All that is VERY audible. Not sure how anyone would even consider to put the suggestion next to the CLX.

joemarvin said:

Dude, do not believe everything you read. The YG are anything but the " best measuring speakers in the world". Not to mention even decent sounding. After reading Dorgay rave, I rushed out to hear these. With Krell top gear, it was hardly bearable. Harsh and glary, over damped and top totally disengaged from the bass module. I felt like listening to a bad PA system. It was hard to keep a polite smile. The guy who own the setup was in haven. Sometime I wonder what is wrong with some people (Dorgay runs an audio magazine??). If you look at some of the YG measurements posted, you will notice an unacceptable level of THD at moderate level. Of-axis response is also rather poor. All that is VERY audible. Not sure how anyone would even consider to put the suggestion next to the CLX.

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Yes I do run an audio magazine, and no I didn't like the speakers with Krell amplification either.

As you haven't mentioned the rest of the setup, anything about the room or what you used for source components or source material, all you're doing at this point is commenting on one setup. For all we know you were using terrible recordings, etc. etc. The off axis response of these speakers is fantastic, especially compared to a panel. If you were paying attention, you'd notice that most high performance speakers are optimized for on axis response and most designers will agree that when you compromise the speaker for a wide sweet spot, you give up a certain percentage of on axis performance.

Most speakers at this level are pretty fussy, the CLX included. I love my CLX's, but they are probably the fussiest speakers I've ever set up.

Your proclamation also shows your relative lack of experience with high end speakers. I've heard all of the big ones (Wilson, YG, Hansen, Magico, etc etc) in many different circumstances and I've heard them all sound terrible, average and great in different rooms. I've heard the CLX's sound terrible on more than one occasion as well.

It's all about setup and everything else associated when you are playing at this level.

I stand by my analysis (review out on tuesday) that the YG's are still a fantastic speaker. It's unfortunate that you had a bad experience.

And the folks at YG came away from my place very pleased with the sound. As a matter of fact, their sales manager said it was one of the best systems he'd ever heard their speakers in.

So in the end, if you want to attack me, do it first person, don't be passive aggressive and attack me in the third person.

Welcome to the ML forum....

Specific to the off-axis response, the owner had me explicitly try that out, by sitting on a sofa perpendicular to the listening position. There was absolutely NO difference whatsoever in the sound, playing piano (didn't try anything else). This was no different than sitting on the sides of Boston Symphony Hall as opposed to center where (on the sides) the sound perception (not positioning of individual instruments) does not change at all.

On the other hand, there were a couple other things I did not mention that bothered me, but I did not elaborate because I suspected set up issues and/or low output setting from the woofers. For example, I get a life-size, 4-ft high, bass drum depiction in my system (but still a little veiled - read slow), but with this particular set up of the YG's I got something rather thin but very fast.

And I neglected to point out that they excelled in reproducing piano, with all its glory and attack.

Overall, I enjoyed the sound, and my comments have to be taken into context with respect to YG's claims and of course the price range they compete in.

joemarvin said:

Dude, do not believe everything you read.

. . .

Sometime I wonder what is wrong with some people (Dorgay runs an audio magazine??).

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Joe Marvin, there is a special section of the forum for new members to introduce themselves. It would behoove you to do so if you intend to continue posting here. When you come onto the forum and your first post is trashing someone else's opinion, especially that of a longtime and respected forum member, you lose all credibility and are immediately deemed a troll by many members. In case you didn't realize, it is rude to jump into a community of people you don't know and start trashing people before you say so much as a "Hi, how are you. My name is so-and-so. Glad to be here."

As for your opinion of the YG's, I understand how you could feel that way if you heard them in the wrong setup. I heard them in three different rooms at the RMAF, and in two of those rooms they sounded exactly as you described. Very harsh. But in the third room they actually sounded pretty darn good. As Jeff says, like many speakers they are apparently very sensitive to room, setup, and associated electronics. And everyone knows that if a speaker has an ability to sound harsh, Krell is probably not the electronics you want to hear it matched up with.

Jeff and Rich,

Joe certainly knows how to make a first impression.

Could win the newbie / first post prize in the fart category.

Gordon

joemarvin said:

Dude, do not believe everything you read. The YG are anything but the " best measuring speakers in the world". Not to mention even decent sounding. After reading Dorgay rave, I rushed out to hear these. With Krell top gear, it was hardly bearable. Harsh and glary, over damped and top totally disengaged from the bass module. I felt like listening to a bad PA system. It was hard to keep a polite smile. The guy who own the setup was in haven. Sometime I wonder what is wrong with some people (Dorgay runs an audio magazine??). If you look at some of the YG measurements posted, you will notice an unacceptable level of THD at moderate level. Of-axis response is also rather poor. All that is VERY audible. Not sure how anyone would even consider to put the suggestion next to the CLX.

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I do agree with your assesment as I've experienced the same on multiple occasions. Hiopefully I can hear them sound good....I do like the design principales though.

Gordon Gray said:

Jeff and Rich,

Joe certainly knows how to make a first impression.

Could win the newbie / first post prize in the fart category.

Gordon

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Yes, a little harsh but he's speaking his mind...give him a chance. He's obviosly a ML fan so he's in the right place if he's trashing a different speaker. Comments about Jeff, yes, they are rude.

Rich,
Sorry, did not mean to offend anybody. I usually stay out of forums due to my own personal limitations. Not the fuzzy, well-mannered type. It is my Latin genes. I was just very disappointed with the results of my YG endeavor, triggered by reading Dorgay comments. I figure, if he goes on the record slamming Wilson, Hansen, and Magico, he must have something special to brag about.

Jeff ,
I have heard the V3 many times, a good friend has them. Not sure I understand how you can call them harsh. If anything, like spectral said, they are a bit polite. Perhaps you like the sound of high THD? Wilson is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum. I would take each one anyday over the YG. Both have fraction of THD of the YG, way better power response, and at less than 1/3 the cost (Wilson Sophia, Magico V3). Never heard the Hansen. In terms of set-up, the system that I heard was set up by YG himself. The guy was very proud about that.

Spectral,
Of-axis response is poor based on the way these speakers measures. If you did not hear it, good for you, it does not change that fact. I am looking forward to hearing Magico M5 or the new Q5, based on your comments. Thank you.

Jeff likes the sound of high THD?

Joe, you've left me speechless.

GG

joemarvin said:

Rich,
Sorry, did not mean to offend anybody. I usually stay out of forums due to my own personal limitations. Not the fuzzy, well-mannered type. It is my Latin genes. I was just very disappointed with the results of my YG endeavor, triggered by reading Dorgay comments. I figure, if he goes on the record slamming Wilson, Hansen, and Magico, he must have something special to brag about.

Jeff ,
I have heard the V3 many times, a good friend has them. Not sure I understand how you can call them harsh. If anything, like spectral said, they are a bit polite. Perhaps you like the sound of high THD? Wilson is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum. I would take each one anyday over the YG. Both have fraction of THD of the YG, way better power response, and at less than 1/3 the cost (Wilson Sophia, Magico V3). Never heard the Hansen. In terms of set-up, the system that I heard was set up by YG himself. The guy was very proud about that.

Spectral,
Of-axis response is poor based on the way these speakers measures. If you did not hear it, good for you, it does not change that fact. I am looking forward to hearing Magico M5 or the new Q5, based on your comments. Thank you.

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Once again as with any typical troll post, you aren't paying attention and you are taking my comments out of context. And if you "don't want to offend anybody" how come your first post on this forum is as argumentative as it is?

I have heard Wilson, Magico and Hansen all sound good in some setups, though I still find the Magico forward sounding and I've got plenty of people that agree with me. If I had to bet money, your a Magico troll. Why else would you be so upset with the fact that I don't care for Magico on a MartinLogan forum? Hmmmm.

Another perfect example of this is the Focal Grande Utopia EM. One of the people I know at Focal told me last year that he had heard the Grandes in about 10 different places and every setup sounded like a completely different speaker to him.

I've heard the Wilson X-2 in probably a dozen different places and in most places it's sounded harsh and forward. When I heard them at Dave Wilson's house, they sounded fantastic and unlike anywhere else I've ever heard them.

Buying 50-200 thousand dollar loudspeakers is a matter of personal preference. It's a lot like buying expensive sports cars. The Aston Martin guy will defend his choice to the death, as will the Ferrari and Porsche owner, all claiming they have the "best" car.

The bottom line is that if you are buying a pair of speakers at this price point (which I highly doubt you are...), you need to spend a lot of time auditioning them in your environment, or one as close to yours as possible.

Whether you agree with me or not doesn't matter and it doesn't matter to me if you do or don't. I'm reporting what I hear and that's either of help to you or it isn't.

What you aren't (or just refuse to) understanding here is that high performance speakers are tough to set up for maximum performance. More often than not, the setup is incorrect, resulting in the type of conversation we are having here.

Very well said Jeff!

Since when does someones genes have anything to do with how a person treats other people unless they are a jerk?

I have heard many speakers at friends houses as well as reviewers and audio stores I know well and they to ME could sound great or in my opinion or ear or not so great.

It is all relative to room,treatment,type of music etc.

Best Regards,
Bob

Jeff, Magico troll? Not sure what you mean but obviously, I did not sell my CLX for a V3. I just can’t see how you can call the V3 forward and also claim that other thinks like you. Even JA thought that they are on the polite side, and what I heard from YG was WAY more aggressive.

Joe,

So you like Magico and don't like YG.

As an aside, I felt that the YG exhibit in the Primrose Room at the 09 RMAF was best in show.

What's your point?

GG

Well, late in the day for me to post on this. but I've heard and reported on all three of the thread titled speakers on this forum. And the V2, for that matter.

My ranking... CLX, Summit X, V3 and the V2, in that order.

Not heard the YG fired up, but I've seen them in the flesh at a London show. Probably best I haven't heard them - they seem pretty controversial, to say the least

joemarvin said:

The YG are anything but the " best measuring speakers in the world". Not to mention even decent sounding.

. . .

If you look at some of the YG measurements posted, you will notice an unacceptable level of THD at moderate level. Of-axis response is also rather poor. All that is VERY audible. Not sure how anyone would even consider to put the suggestion next to the CLX.

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Really? Then why, after extensive measuring, did John Atkinson say the following:

In its ads, YG Acoustics states that the Anat Reference II Professional is "The best loudspeaker on Earth. Period." Its impressive measured behavior doesn't detract from that claim.

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Source

When giving the speakers a "Jimmy Award" at CES 2008, Soundstage AV.com stated:

Driven by relatively inexpensive Krell electronics (FPB 400cx stereo amplifiers, 400Wpc, $12,000 each; KCT preamplifier, $10,500), the sound of the Anat Reference II Pros was airy, forceful, and coolly cerebral, all at once. I was less in love with the music and more impressed with the low level of distortion.

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(emphasis added)
source

joemarvin said:

After reading Dorgay rave, I rushed out to hear these.

. . .

I was just very disappointed with the results of my YG endeavor, triggered by reading Dorgay comments. I figure, if he goes on the record slamming Wilson, Hansen, and Magico, he must have something special to brag about.

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Ummm . . . Jeff didn't make you go out and hear these. He offered his opinion, as all reviewers do, and you apparently treated it like word from heaven. You heard them, and based on one listening session in one setup, you formed a different opinion. I hardly see how that should engender the kind of anger you are exhibiting toward Jeff, as if he stole minutes of your time by forcing you to hear these speakers . . . unless, of course, you have a different agenda here. Like just finding a reason to trash Jeff for the sake of trashing Jeff. In other words, as Gordon said: What's your point?

joemarvin said:

Of-axis response is poor based on the way these speakers measures. If you did not hear it, good for you, it does not change that fact.

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In order for it to be a "fact" you have to provide some proof of it. John Atkinson measured it and said the following:

Other than a very slight off-axis flare between 5 and 7kHz, the contour lines in this graph are evenly spaced, and the output increasingly but gently slopes down in the highs with increasing off-axis angle, which is textbook behavior.

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(source same as above)

Please provide us a link to your source regarding the "poor" off-axis response measurements of these speakers and for that matter, your claims regarding THD.

joemarvin said:

Jeff, Magico troll? Not sure what you mean but obviously, I did not sell my CLX for a V3.

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How is this obvious? This is the first time you have mentioned owning the CLX. You come on this forum slamming the opinion of one of its senior members before establishing any credibility of your own, you throw out supposed facts without any evidentiary support, and you go to great lengths to trash a highly regarded speaker based on one listening session with that speaker! I agree with Jeff. You certainly do seem to be a troll.

As the saying goes, put up or shut up. Provide some links to the measurements which support your claims that these speakers measure poorly off-axis and in THD or to some commentary from a trustworthy source that supports your point of view.

joemarvin said:

Jeff, Magico troll? Not sure what you mean but obviously, I did not sell my CLX for a V3. I just can’t see how you can call the V3 forward and also claim that other thinks like you. Even JA thought that they are on the polite side, and what I heard from YG was WAY more aggressive.

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So, if you're not a magico troll, let's see a picture of your room with CLX's. Again seems awfully strange that as a new poster on this forum you would go to such tremendous length argue about a speaker you don't own and to discredit me.

We can argue all day long about whether the Magico sounds one way or another, but if you don't own them and don't care, what's the point?