CLX vs SummitX vs Magico V3 - anyone?

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spectral

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Has anyone compared all these? Opinions? I am going in for a long audition of the V3 tomorrow. My initial encounter when it was first introduced was positive, which changed to extremely positive a few months ago when I listened to it with analog sources (SME, Clearaudio Stradivarius) and had a chance to compare it with the $150K Magic M6. They will be mated with a JL F113 - these speaker definitely need a sub to move enough air. I may even get a chance to compare it with the M5's.

Unfortunately, the local dealer no longer carries Martin Logan to be able to compare with the rest myself, and would probably have to travel down to Overture for this... Which brings up the next question - whatever happened to that Overture CLX day?

Thanks

Peter
 
Audition the Magico Mini 2 instead!

Spectral,

I am going to share my biases with you. However, if you wanted to hear that the speaker is great and were not interested in disconfirming evidence, you probably would not have asked.

Personally, as someone who listens to electrostats almost daily, I do not think the V3 is a great speaker. I can hear all 3 drivers distinct from each other. Also, I think the speaker can sound too detailed at times. This, of course, can take away pleasure away from connecting with the music and focus one on the equipment.

Additionally, the V3 does not work well with all amplifiers. In his review, Atkinson of Stereophile admitted that it did not mate well with 2 of the 3 amplifiers he had on hand at the time.

Personally, I think it's the closest non electrostatic speaker to the electrostat sound is the Magico mini 2. It has deeper bass than the CLX and better bass (less boomy, faster, more textured) than my hybrid Spire. The speaker is more dynamic than the Logans (except CLX), and has more weight (but not as much as a full box speaker). The midrange feels a bit slower than what the panel can produce, however.

If I had to choose, I would pick the CLX or the Soundlab over the Magico Mini. However, the Mini is a great speaker and is the one speaker at a "somewhat reasonable" price point that an electrostat fan can live with. One has to spend a lot more to get much better.
 
Magico V3 impressions

I spent 2 hours listening to the V3 augmented by a JL F113, driven by the Spectral DMA-360 Series II monos, which in turn were driven by the Berkeley Alpha DAC - this is the system RH reviewed (sans the JL) in TAS and was so ecstatic about, and has recently characterized it as "special" on theabsolutesound.com forums...

To make a long story short, and as I told the dealer, I have markedly better sound at home, with a "lesser" Spectral amp driving the Odysseys and the same source material... My impressions can be summarized as follows (source material was some vocal, jazz and mostly large orchestral):

1) The V3's have a more laid back midrange presentation than the Odysseys
2) Wind instruments sound considerably smaller, and un-life-like. Cymbals were not as realistic as through the electrostats; voices were on a par.
3) The Odysseys offer overall more midrange transparency, with a wider soundstage, more resolution, which makes them ultimately much more musical.
4) The dynamic contrasts in my systems are LARGER than what I heard from the V3's, possibly because of the more laid back character and their smallish drivers - they just don't move enough air. The Odysseys in the system, as currently configured, are more lively, more involving and more exciting, if not downright thrilling.
5) The V3's driven by these amps exhibited frighteningly fast bass - just not enough of it, and the deep bass from the JL was definitely tighter than what I am used to. While playing The Right Of Spring on RR, I never felt the gut-wrenching pressure I feel at home on bass drum whacks, that also shake the chair and the walls.
6) The soundstage that the V3's rendered was actually deeper, but that's probably the 360's doing.

A typical example was Capriccio Italien on RR; the winds sound so real in my system with great body, and the finale - where I always find myself throwing my hands up in the air all over like a maestro would - left me wanting more out of the V3's. Their rendering was exciting, but not to the same degree, and I wasn't jumping up from my seat with excitement as I usually do at home.

Overall, with the exception of the more articulate bass, there is absolutely nothing else I could point to the V3's (as set up) that would excel over my electrostats. In my system's main page, I had made some very favorable comments when I first heard the V3's a couple of years ago, considering them back then superior to my system. As it has been proven since then, it was my SDR-2000 DAC which was responsible for the sound not being up to par.

The dealer also admitted that when he had the CLX's briefly in the store, they sounded "spectacular", a word that he has never used with the V3's.

The bottom line is that it's very difficult (or perhaps very expensive) to give up electrostats for dynamic speakers, at least for me. VERY difficult.

Next week I am going to audition the Magico M5's (for fun) driven by the same amps. I intend to then bring those amps home to see if they are worth upgrading to. My gut feeling is that they will be, having seen how they controlled the V3's and the soundstage they threw. The dealer said the M5's have an even more laid back presentation and they still require two F212 JL's to move enough air (but it in a much larger room) - hmmm..... He mentioned this is in sharp contrast to the M6's, which I have heard in the past and they are indeed anything but laid back - in fact, they are nothing short of spectacular and on a par with electrostats. Now THAT'S a speaker I dream of owning, but never will... :)
 
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IF you want to hear a really exciting speaker that you won't need subwoofers for that still has the top to bottom coherence and the big "Walk-through" sound of your ML's, listen to the YG Anats.

These are the most musically revealing speakers I've ever heard, without being harsh like Wilson, Magico or Hansen.

And knowing how fast the Spectral amps are, I'll bet you'd freak out at the combination.
 
Coincides with my experience (main floor room) at RMAF 09.

First speaker I've heard in awhile that could take the place of my previous dream speaker, the MBL 101.

GG
 
Personally, I think if you've been attracted to the panel sound, it's tough to find something else you like as much. It's a pretty exciting presentation.

Same thing if you like the big dynamic swing of a good cone speaker. Those people never get that excited about panels for exactly the opposite reasons.
 
IF you want to hear a really exciting speaker that you won't need subwoofers for that still has the top to bottom coherence and the big "Walk-through" sound of your ML's, listen to the YG Anats.

These are the most musically revealing speakers I've ever heard, without being harsh like Wilson, Magico or Hansen.

And knowing how fast the Spectral amps are, I'll bet you'd freak out at the combination.

Thanks for the tip, and I'll see what I can do. But it sounds like the price of improvement will be very steep, and in the end the CLX may just be the better bargain. So since you have both the CLX and the Anat's currently, how would you compare the two?
 
Personally, I think the only non-electrostat speaker I could stand is a line-source using a mix of dynamic mid-bass drivers + ribbon mid-highs.

A close second would be one using high-quality dynamic tweeters. But the ribbons (think WisdomAudio) are much better.

Single tweeter driver systems can sound OK at moderate volumes, but lack the dynamics and soundstage of a line-source.

I'd rather have a high-end KEF if forced to use dynamic drivers.
 
Thanks for the tip, and I'll see what I can do. But it sounds like the price of improvement will be very steep, and in the end the CLX may just be the better bargain. So since you have both the CLX and the Anat's currently, how would you compare the two?

Well, to make a very long story short, the CLX is still a fantastic speaker, but the YG is probably one of the very few that does eclipse it. The Anats are one of the only two cone speakers I've heard (the GamuT S-9 at 180k a pair is the only other) that has that big, seamless coherence that the CLX has.

The YG also has better low level detail retrieval. Though the CLX has fantastic dynamics, it's still not the equivalent of the YG. And the YG is the cleanest, least grainy speaker I've ever heard.

If you have the room, system and most of all, fantastic recordings, I guarantee the YG will take you somewhere you've never been.

One of the other things I really like about the YG's (especially the smaller studio version I have in for review with one woofer cabinet instead of the two on the Pro version) is that the footprint is very small. The CLX and a pair of subs is a pretty imposing system. The YG's are much easier to set up than my CLX's were.

All of that being said, the CLX is still a phenomenal speaker and with a pair of Depths, Descents or JL subs gives you a bigger helping of the cost no object speakers than anything I've experienced. The CLX is definitely a better bargain, but the YG's are really special. As they should be for that kind of money.

Knowing how good Spectral electronics are, I'd be really curious to hear the YG's with Spectral. I'll bet it's pretty darn good. The matchup with Burmester has been heavenly.
 
Hi Spectral,

FWIW, there's a pair of Kipods (Series I I believe) on the GON for $14K. List $39K.

Not sure if it's the powered or passive woofer.

If I had the change, I'd be very tempted given what I heard at RMAF 09 and for all the reasons Jeff stated.

GG
 
I've (all-too-briefly, alas!) heard the YG Anats in Jeff's system. A very fine speaker it is!
 
The Kipods are indeed powered. That's an awesome speaker for 14k and very easy to work with in your room.
 
Hi Spectral,

Seems like you have come to the same conclusion as the others on the thread on avguide regarding going from stats to box speakers:

http://www.avguide.com/forums/anyone-successfully-go-stats-planars-box-speakers

I think that the YG Kipod is at a point where you can start to make the tradeoff between stats and other speaker types. The Kipod sounds like real live music to my ears. It doesn't have the transparency of the CLX or other Logans, however.

The question I have is are you looking for a speaker that sounds transparent and true to source, or sounds like real live music? (I'm borrowing definitions from Jon Valin's blog on Avguide, called Let's call the whole thing off.) If it's the former, CLX is your speaker. (Summit X is very transparent, but has that annoying boominess in the bass, to my ears.) If you like equipment that sounds like live music, you'll love the YG or the Soundlab. Also, there is a new Focal at the $30K price point that is a mini version of the $190K Grand Utopia that sound pretty real as well.

Another option the Janszen. That speaker sounded pretty real when I heard it a few months back. I think David Janszen may offer a 45 day trial.

Due dilligence is key at that price point. Enjoy the selection process!
 
Hi Spectral,

Seems like you have come to the same conclusion as the others on the thread on avguide regarding going from stats to box speakers:

http://www.avguide.com/forums/anyone-successfully-go-stats-planars-box-speakers

I think that the YG Kipod is at a point where you can start to make the tradeoff between stats and other speaker types. The Kipod sounds like real live music to my ears. It doesn't have the transparency of the CLX or other Logans, however.

The question I have is are you looking for a speaker that sounds transparent and true to source, or sounds like real live music? (I'm borrowing definitions from Jon Valin's blog on Avguide, called Let's call the whole thing off.) If it's the former, CLX is your speaker. (Summit X is very transparent, but has that annoying boominess in the bass, to my ears.) If you like equipment that sounds like live music, you'll love the YG or the Soundlab. Also, there is a new Focal at the $30K price point that is a mini version of the $190K Grand Utopia that sound pretty real as well.

Another option the Janszen. That speaker sounded pretty real when I heard it a few months back. I think David Janszen may offer a 45 day trial.

Due dilligence is key at that price point. Enjoy the selection process!

I hate to keep hammering this point home, but if you haven't heard the YG's in a good room with good gear, you can't make the call.

The guy on the AV Guide forum talking about a day setting up box speakers is really clueless. I had the YG's set up in about 20 minutes. When their factory guy came here to check my work he said my setup was perfect.

I love my CLX's, but they are by far the most finicky speaker I've ever had the pleasure of setting up. I don't think I'd give up the CLX's for Kipods, but they are darn close and don't need a pair of subs, etc. At this price point, I'd be doing some careful listening...
 
Thanks for everyone's feedback. I would have to listen to anything before I dish out any money, though. Right now, I am much more interested in auditioning the Spectral monoblocs than anything else. The V3 was intriguing to me because a used one is coming up on the market, but it's no longer a consideration.

BTW, to JonFo - I am with you 100% here; that's exactly what I've told the dealer for my ultimate dynamic speaker: ultra-fast midrange drivers flanking a ribbon tweet in a D'Appolito configuration at a minimum. The Magico M6 with its Heil tweeter is even better than that.
 
Tonepub-When can we expect a full review on the YGs? I have talked to the engineer Yoav personally, he is a cool guy.

Spectral- Do you find this a possible limiting factor having to only use MIT cables? Do you use the top of the line MIT cable or Spectral brand MIT cable?
 
Spectral- Do you find this a possible limiting factor having to only use MIT cables? Do you use the top of the line MIT cable or Spectral brand MIT cable?

I only use the Spectral branded cables - they do sound different than any other MIT I have tried (others tend to be polite, even a little bloated), although I have never tried their Oracle line, nor do I care to spend that kind of money for wire, and I don't care about impedance matching networks, nor do I understand what the heck articulation poles are, etc. RH can rave about the Oracle MA's all he wants, but I ain't spending anything over what I have to.

Using the MIT/Spectral cables is NOT a limiting factor to me, a) because of the way the whole system sounds; and b) because Spectral's design philosophy makes absolute sense to me - the cables' characteristics are built into the design for, so called, optimal optimization across the board.

For example, the amp lacks the input choke and output inductor, and those parts sit in the interconnects and speaker cables. The cables limit the bandwidth of the amp to 800kHz (-3dB mark) to avoid oscillations (thus, can still operate in the MHz range). Whether anyone agrees with or likes this is another story. But when I look at their approach, it's exactly how I would have built things as well. This, plus the fact they require you to drive their amps with their own preamps - except for the less performing and soon-to-be-withdrawn "universal" versions - (because of the amp's low input impedance, minimum voltage input requirements, and the preamps' stability into the MHz), makes their amplifiers extremely finicky. Basically, you can't drive the amp directly from a DAC or use another preamp without voiding your warranty. THAT's the limiting factor here, not the MIT/Spectral cables.

You should also know that they have "blessed" other non-Spectral-branded MIT cables for use with their equipment, so long as it's the "ultra-wide" bandwidth versions. Anyone looking at their equipment must be ready to accept that switching cables isn't kosher, although I do know people who do it. For example, HP, in his 2000 TAS review of the DMA-360's, made a single one-liner comment on the MIT cables before he tossed them out in favor of Nordost. And RH drove the Series II of these amps directly from the Alpha DAC and wasn't shy about letting this out. Finally, I have personally used non-MIT cables and the amp did run considerably hotter, either because it was internally oscillating, or wasting too much power amplifying ultra high frequencies, or both, so there is real merit to their requirements, at least to some degree.

Perhaps in the end one can do whatever one wants, so long as one understands the technical underpinnings of their requirements and can work around them.
 
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Tonepub-When can we expect a full review on the YGs? I have talked to the engineer Yoav personally, he is a cool guy.

Spectral- Do you find this a possible limiting factor having to only use MIT cables? Do you use the top of the line MIT cable or Spectral brand MIT cable?

The YG review will be in either or Dec or Feb issue. not sure yet!
 
Auditioning the Anats

Jeff - the YG factory set me up with a local audiophile who's got the Anats driven by the same Burmester 911 MkIII, a Meridian 808.2 and some Vitus preamp, and will audition in the next couple of weeks, although they are way out of my range. Will be interesting to see what I think of them...
 
Magico M5 and Spectral 360 Series II

I had the pleasure to audition this speaker a couple of weeks ago, and I think it is truly phenomenal - I really felt I was listening to an electrostat with complete top to bottom coherence and driver integration, speed and clarity; btw, haven't yet hooked up with the YG owner but will soon. This speaker's bass speed and articulation must be heard to be believed; after this experience, my ML's bass is just that - bass sounds, not bass notes and music.

Then, I brought home the Spectral 360 amps for further evaluation, and was simply floored. I never thought my Odysseys would ever offer true lifelike sound (at least from the panels) with the right material. These amps offer astonishingly extreme low level resolution, which, coupled with their breathtaking transient speed and complete lack of overhang, make music sound LIVE. This is true goose bump territory, something that I have never experienced before in my system. Example - with the Take Five LP, the zildjian cymbals had all the metallic 'life' and palpable, sinewave decaying vibration when hit, instead of a simple bright 'ding' followed by a linearly decaying sound, something that I have never experienced before.

To these ears, and obviously without the experience and exposure to other equipment that others have, these amps sound COMPLETE. It looks like I will be ordering a pair.
 

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