Help with CLS

easypete · Nov 10, 2009

So... I finally found a pair of CLSs. Now, I have an issue...

My test song for any changes in my system is Patricia Barber's Constantinople (in SACD). I am having trouble in two areas... the trumpet, on the higher pitch and louder notes, is distorting... sounds like analog clipping or static. Also, on the low notes... they are just uncontrollable at higher volumes (about 90 dB). The low notes just rattle the speakers. It does not sound good at all. When I back down to about 75 dB, everything sounds good (did not listen to it long at that volume).

As for my signal path... Denon 5910ci, Outlaw 990 Pre/Pro, and Ayre V-5xe. Interconnects are Audioquest King Cobra (unbalanced from Denon to Outlaw and balanced from Outlaw to Ayre). Speaker wires are Audioquest Gibraltar (bi-wired for my Maggies). I have these connected with spades at the base of the binding post and bananas in the post on the CLSs.

My thoughts...

1. I was warned that the CLSs can consume some power. Maybe the Ayre is not powerful enough. It is rated at 300WPC @ 4 ohm. Supposedly more than the CLS can handle.

2. Room treatment or speaker placement... I have not split my system up yet (still a home theater / 2-channel system. Plan is to have the components necessary for a split in the Spring). I took my Magnepan 1.6QRs out and replaced them with the CLSs. My Maggies never had a problem with lower frequency resonance from the room, so I don't know if I believe this. I did try to throw some some corner tiles in behind the speaker, with no improvement. I also moved the speakers further away from the wall, with no noticeable improvement.

I don't have a picture of the room with the CLSs, but this picture was taken not too long ago with the Maggies in place...

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

EP

roberto · Nov 10, 2009

easypete said:
So... I finally found a pair of CLSs. Now, I have an issue...

My test song for any changes in my system is Patricia Barber's Constantinople (in SACD). I am having trouble in two areas... the trumpet, on the higher pitch and louder notes, is distorting... sounds like analog clipping or static. Also, on the low notes... they are just uncontrollable at higher volumes (about 90 dB). The low notes just rattle the speakers. It does not sound good at all. When I back down to about 75 dB, everything sounds good (did not listen to it long at that volume).

As for my signal path... Denon 5910ci, Outlaw 990 Pre/Pro, and Ayre V-5xe. Interconnects are Audioquest King Cobra (unbalanced from Denon to Outlaw and balanced from Outlaw to Ayre). Speaker wires are Audioquest Gibraltar (bi-wired for my Maggies). I have these connected with spades at the base of the binding post and bananas in the post on the CLSs.

My thoughts...

1. I was warned that the CLSs can consume some power. Maybe the Ayre is not powerful enough. It is rated at 300WPC @ 4 ohm. Supposedly more than the CLS can handle.

2. Room treatment or speaker placement... I have not split my system up yet (still a home theater / 2-channel system. Plan is to have the components necessary for a split in the Spring). I took my Magnepan 1.6QRs out and replaced them with the CLSs. My Maggies never had a problem with lower frequency resonance from the room, so I don't know if I believe this. I did try to throw some some corner tiles in behind the speaker, with no improvement. I also moved the speakers further away from the wall, with no noticeable improvement.

I don't have a picture of the room with the CLSs, but this picture was taken not too long ago with the Maggies in place...

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

EP

Hola, I am a super happy owner of CLSs since '87. I assure you that what you are getting is coming from your power amp. You are clipping it. On the other side, your CLSs are not too good with high pressure level. If you like to crank them up, you will need the aid of two subs and an electronic crossover to take off the low frequency off them. These are the bad new...now the good news. You do not need to play them too loud to get the right size of any instrument(s) or vocal(s) in your room. The stage and the sense of truly 3D sound still is one of the best on the marketplace on these days!, wind instrument(s) like trumpet or flugel-horm, trombone, sax, fagot, clarinet, baritone, tenor, alto, etc, are in a such way of detail, that if you are a wind player, you will understand the position of your lips making that particular sound in that piece. The woods (violin, viola, cello, bass, guitar) you understand the fingering...these things make the CLSs extraordinaries speakers. You have to learn how to listen to them in a different way that you did before with your other speakers. Hope this can help...happy listening, trust your ears!
Roberto.

FOUNTAIN · Nov 10, 2009

Hello Pete,

I don't want to speak in absolutes here since I have never tried your combination before, but I doubt it is your amp unless you are cranking it up to super loud volumes. I heard some CLS'S just the other day hooked up to a tube amp with only 100 watts per channel and they played pretty good at louder volumes. I have the same Ayre amp as you do and it drives my Vantage's without a hiccup at loud volumes. Of course your speakers are a full range panel, but many here have driven theirs with much less power including one that used only a single MC275 with great success. I hope you can figure it out.

Glen

Wardsweb · Nov 10, 2009

Let's be sure we look at apples to apples. The CLS (of which I have owned for over a decade) are unlike any newer hybrids. They are difficult loads, as they can dip down to 2 ohms and the impedance can cripple an amp not up to the task. Over the years my CLS's have been through many amps to realize I need a lot more current capability than watts.

Carver m1.5t
solid state stereo amp
350 wpc into 8
Clip this one even at medium levels

Carver TFM-35
solid state stereo
250 wpc into 8, 400 into 4, 750 into 2
Could clip this one when pushed hard

Carver A-500x
solid state stereo
250 wpc into 8, 400 into 4, 750 into 2
current limited at 2 ohm
Didn't clip but wasn't comfortable with the meter swings

Carver A-760x
solid state stereo
380 wpc into 8, 600 into 4, 1150 into 2
current limited at 1 ohm
walk in the park, effortless

Carver Silver 7t amps
solid state mono blocks
575 wpc into 8 ohms, 900 wpc into 4, 1000 into 2
current limited at 1 ohm
amp idled most of the time, piece of cake

Ampzilla 2000
solid state mono blocks
150 wpc into 16 ohms, 300 wpc into 8, 500 into 4
not current limited, can drive less than 0.5 ohms
the best by a great margin. more bass than I've ever had

C.A.P · Nov 10, 2009

CLS will eat all you can give them! They are current hungry predators. Also if your getting distortion and not buzzing its clipping your amp. Buzzing is the panels heading out . If that's the case GET READY FOR $1500 BUT WELL WORTH IT. CLS will also embarrass upstream equipment as its so revealing.

Craig · Nov 10, 2009

What model or version of the CLS are you using? They made four different one and there were some variations in the sensitivity. Some are more power hungry than others. Although, I think the CLS's are similar to the Magnepans when it comes to power demands. Current is what's important and not so much the watts. I understand Maggies like a lot of power too. If not more so than the CLS (?).

What are the serial numbers of the speakers and panels? There is a separate number for the panel and power module. These numbers are coded and will tell you their age and model. There may be info on the power module that will indicate which version of the CLS you have.
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5178

easypete · Nov 10, 2009

Decisions ...

Roberto -

I don't normally push my speakers to 90+ dB. Normally, I listen at 85 dB. It's just something I got used to mixing/mastering music for years. I thought about subs, but that kinda defeats the purpose of the having the CLSs. If I wanted a crossover, I probably would have gone to the Vantages. I may have to go that route, but would rather find an alternative, if possible.

Wardsweb -

You still have any of those amps that work well w/ the CLSs? If so, send me a PM with pricing for anything you are willing to sell. I compared this list to Audiogon, and only saw the Ampzilla 2000. It's just a little over what I want to spend right now.

I have a Citation 7.1, but don't know that it will perform better than the Ayre (can't think that it will). I don't think it's 2 ohm stable.

C.A.P -

I can swing $1500... what do you recommend for an amp?

Craig -

I'll look it up when I get home, but think it's the original version. I searched long for them, and didn't want the II or IIz's due to the offset imaging.

Thanks everyone for comments.

easypete · Nov 10, 2009

Craig said:
Although, I think the CLS's are similar to the Magnepans when it comes to power demands. Current is what's important and not so much the watts. I understand Maggies like a lot of power too. If not more so than the CLS (?).

I always heard that the CLS's were much worse than the Maggies on power, especially with the CLS's ability to run super low impedance at lower frequencies. Don't think Maggies have this issue. They are about the same perceived volume level as the Maggies were (no other system changes).

twich54 · Nov 10, 2009

easypete said:
I thought about subs, but that kinda defeats the purpose of the having the CLSs. .

How......Why.. ?? if you want the bottom octave you integrate a sub, in no way does that 'defeat the purpose' of the CLS

Regarding your distortion issues , I'm some what surprised if it turns out to be your Ayre, for it appears to be stable enough (dbls down into 4 ohms)

Wardsweb · Nov 10, 2009

I use to run two 10" subs with my CLS. The smaller subs are faster and easier to integrate with the CLS. The exception to this would be if you run sub horns where a large driver only has to move a fraction of its excursion and thus can recover quickly.

roberto · Nov 10, 2009

easypete said:
Roberto -

I don't normally push my speakers to 90+ dB. Normally, I listen at 85 dB. It's just something I got used to mixing/mastering music for years. I thought about subs, but that kinda defeats the purpose of the having the CLSs. If I wanted a crossover, I probably would have gone to the Vantages. I may have to go that route, but would rather find an alternative, if possible.

Wardsweb -

You still have any of those amps that work well w/ the CLSs? If so, send me a PM with pricing for anything you are willing to sell. I compared this list to Audiogon, and only saw the Ampzilla 2000. It's just a little over what I want to spend right now.

I have a Citation 7.1, but don't know that it will perform better than the Ayre (can't think that it will). I don't think it's 2 ohm stable.

C.A.P -

I can swing $1500... what do you recommend for an amp?

Craig -

I'll look it up when I get home, but think it's the original version. I searched long for them, and didn't want the II or IIz's due to the offset imaging.

Thanks everyone for comments.

Hola...I still have the CLS and the CLSIIz and this last one is my current speaker. Before the CLS I have the Magnepan Timpany 3B, and drove them with Mark Levinson gear. On these days my power amp is an Audio Research model VT-100MKII. If you want to get the best of your CLSs, then they should be at least 3 feet away of their back wall. Your seating position must be longer than the distance between them. Also they should be at 1/3 of the inner side facing you. The left speaker, the outside side is wider, same thing for the right, the outside is wider than the inner side. To my liking, and in the rooms that I had have them, they are like lean back for better vertical dispersion, there are so many variables, that you have to experiment to get the best of them. Regarding the sub, I only use it, when I play them with my 5.1 system, otherwise, I do not use any sub. I rather like to have the bass musician where the stage is than next to me. Again, this is my liking. Many here say that they lack bass punch, or the bass is very shy, to my liking, they do a great job with the music that I usually play. I do not need more bass...I can listen the difference between an A and an A#. To my poor ears, I love the tube sound, perhaps you might like it too...happy listening,
Roberto.

Craig · Nov 10, 2009

I don't think the CLS are as bad on power requirements as some would suggest but they can certainly take all you can give them. I'd be careful about jumping to conclusions that you're Ayre amp is inadequate. Especially without knowing the age of the panels yet.

For best results, I use a sub with my CLS and no external crossover needed.

easypete said:
...
I'll look it up when I get home, but think it's the original version. I searched long for them, and didn't want the II or IIz's due to the offset imaging...

The CLS II and IIz's have offset imaging...???

Brad225 · Nov 10, 2009

Pete, by offset imaging are you referring to the vertical strip on the outside edges of the panels being different widths for different frequency range?

If this is what you meant why do you consider this a negative?
If this is not, can you explain a bit more about what you are referring to so we can understand your concern with those models?

Try some different placements for your speakers as has been suggested. Can you borrow some other electronics to see how it effects the sound.

I have an Outlaw 990 I use for multi channel HT. A few months ago I swapped it out for the 2 channel preamp I was using at the time to see what it sounded like. I don't know if what I heard was exactly what you described as I don't listen very loud but the high end was rather shrill, mids edgy and not very clean while the low end seamed too full and bloated. I think thou it might be partly the Outlaw and partly as CAP and others have said before, if there is a weakness in your system upstream the CLS's will make it painfully evident. Most all of us have gone through the WOW something is just not right with my system with the CLS's. Keep working at small changes and I'm sure you will be able to cure the problem.

Gordon Gray · Nov 10, 2009

Pete,

My 2 cents. I listen to this disc, and that specific cut often.

I also owned the 2A's for several years.

Regarding the trumpet and despite other members comments, sure sounds like amp clipping to me.

As for the low end, this CD has incredibly deep bass and is a real test for any system. My sense is that you either have amp clipping or are overdriving the panel.

Did you notice any "blue sparks" coming from the panel during the deep bass sections of this cut? If you did,the mylar is hitting the stator meaning that you are clearly overdriving the panel.

As Roberto and others have said, these speakers do have some dynamic limitations. However and within their performance parameters, they have a magic other ML models simply don't have.

GG

easypete · Nov 10, 2009

Craig said:
The CLS II and IIz's have offset imaging...???

I had an opportunity to listen to the CLS and the CLS IIz on the same system. When we switched speakers over, the IIz's center of image seemed like it shifted over to the left speaker for some of the mids (about 2kHz) and the right speaker for the mid-lows (~ 45-55 Hz). I always thought it was due to the eccentric spacing. We switched back to the CLS's and the imaging was centered again.

easypete · Nov 10, 2009

twich54 said:
How......Why.. ?? if you want the bottom octave you integrate a sub, in no way does that 'defeat the purpose' of the CLS

Regarding your distortion issues , I'm some what surprised if it turns out to be your Ayre, for it appears to be stable enough (dbls down into 4 ohms)

I don't know... I've been back and forth on that decision. I will, more than likely, end up with subs, but always wanted the CLS's due to lack of x-over. If I will play with the sunfire in my system to see if this helps (not stereo subs... but worth experimenting).

Horchem1972 · Nov 11, 2009

Agree w/ CAP

The distorting at high frequencies is the amp.The panel bottoming out is more than likely due to loose mylar.You can try to use the heat from a blow dryer to try and tighten the bass sections on the panels.I repeat only the bass sections.If you are absolutely thinking of buying new panels,it never hurts to try the blow dryer.The Ayre may put out 300 watts at 4 ohms,but the CLS series dips down into the 1-2 ohm range at higher frequencies.That amp may fall on its face at those loads.See in Jonfo will bring over a Sunfire to test the amp theory,since you live in Atlanta.Good luck.

easypete · Nov 11, 2009

Horchem1972 said:
The distorting at high frequencies is the amp.The panel bottoming out is more than likely due to loose mylar.You can try to use the heat from a blow dryer to try and tighten the bass sections on the panels.I repeat only the bass sections.If you are absolutely thinking of buying new panels,it never hurts to try the blow dryer.The Ayre may put out 300 watts at 4 ohms,but the CLS series dips down into the 1-2 ohm range at higher frequencies.That amp may fall on its face at those loads.See in Jonfo will bring over a Sunfire to test the amp theory,since you live in Atlanta.Good luck.

I think you're right about the loose mylar. I did a lot more experimenting last night / this morning.

It appears that the excessive bass response is in the right speaker. Now this may have to do with placement (don't know) but I never had a problem with this side w/ the Maggies, which, besides the curvi-linear should be about the same response as the Maggies.

I did play with the Denon's built in bass management. I turned off the source direct mode and changed the speaker sizes to small w/ a crossover set at 40Hz, 60 Hz, and 80 Hz. I listened at each crossover point, and as I increased the frequency, it seemed to give a little relief to the "looseness" of the bass on the right speaker. Still no where near perfect, but better.

I also changed what I was listening to. I switched over to Vienna Teng (Waking Hour) and Tori Amos (Pink). I didn't really have a problem with either album, even with bass management off on the Denon. I really do like the sound of the speakers, and did not really even hear any higher freq distortion.

Just to be sure, what constitutes the bass section? Is it the outside sections of the speaker (two vertical strips)? How much heat? How long?

Thanks,

EP

Craig · Nov 11, 2009

easypete said:
I had an opportunity to listen to the CLS and the CLS IIz on the same system. When we switched speakers over, the IIz's center of image seemed like it shifted over to the left speaker for some of the mids (about 2kHz) and the right speaker for the mid-lows (~ 45-55 Hz). I always thought it was due to the eccentric spacing. We switched back to the CLS's and the imaging was centered again.

If you connect the speaker wires out of phase to one speaker then that will throw the imaging way off to one side, just as you described.

FOUNTAIN · Nov 11, 2009

Pete I would hold out on placing the amp at fault until you can be sure that there is nothing wrong with the panels themselves. If the panel is not performing properly then the amplifier and even placement won't really matter too much. However, if you have the ability to try a different amp without any cost to you then this would be ideal. This way you can at least rule that out or in, depending on the results. If you were only having the issue with the occassional distortion at louder volumes when listening to the trumpet then it probably is the amp, but if you are getting rattling sounds coming from your panels as well then this would cause me to think the panels may be in need of replacement. I wish I had tried my amp on the CLS's when I listened to them a couple of weeks ago. I came very close to purchasing them, but could not justify to the wife why we needed to have two pairs of ML speakers in the house. For your sake I hope whatever the problem is, that it will be simple and easy to fix. Good luck.

Glen

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