Vinyl vs Cd; or why I need to spend more!

I want to thank all of guys for your comments on my rumble thread. I could read through the lines, and you were all kind enough to not come out and say I needed to buy a better table even though that is what you wanted to say!

This fact was driven home today. I received a new, 200 gram Blue Note recording of Patricia Barber, A fortnight in France. I know this recording fairly well on CD. Either the vinyl is defective, I don't know what I'm doing (likely) or the table is inadequate in comparison to the level of my other gear.

My digital playback is very smooth and real to me. The analog is very harsh and exhibits huge amounts of sibilance. While I did note some additional detail on the vinyl, the remainder of the presentation was and is unacceptable.

So, it appears I'll have to do some searching here and elsewhere to find a table of a higher caliber. I've a budget of about 4-5K for a combination table and cart.

Thanks, I hate you guys!

Gordon

You're welcome!

Your excessive sibilance problem will probably be able to be addressed (more or less) by careful cartridge alignment. If you don't already have one, get a cartridge alignment protractor and spend the time (an hour or so) to get your cartridge aligned just so. Then make sure your VTA, VTF, and anti-skate are correctly set.

I'm not familiar with the particualr record you mention, but I have several of Classic Record's 200g pressings and they're great, so I doubt the problem is with the record per se.

Why spend more?

I can't imagine why you would want to make that leap with vinyl personally, when digital done right can sound so good. I have yet to hear a major difference between quality digital and vinyl sources. This was reinforced to me once again at RMAF, where many of the best-sounding systems had digital sources. And honestly, I heard just as many bad-sounding systems with vinyl front ends as I did with digital ones. I really think the gap between digital vs. analog sound quality has closed considerably with recent Transport and DAC advancements. Considering the sound quality of some of the high-res digital material I heard at the show, I can't imagine why anyone would want to invest in an expensive turntable, cartridge, and phono pre, and then deal with the hassle of playing albums, unless they already had a large collection of vinyl that was going unused. I could never go back to Vinyl. The cost, hassles, and pop/crackle/hiss just isn't worth it to me.

I agree with Rich on the level of mediocrity I heard at the RMAF show! I also agree that the gap has closed dramatically. I'm just as happy listening to either.

However, if you spend 4-5k on an analog front end, you should be able to get some very good results. (you just missed out on a fantastic deal on a used Rega P9!!)

Even if you just get your hands on an analog setup that is close to your digital, I think the great reason for having vinyl is the amount of music that isn't available on CD, digital etc., allowing you to expand your music collection.

Think of the table as "more" rather than "better" and I think you'll have a good time with it. And think long and hard about something to keep those records clean. If you keep your records in top shape and clean them religiously, you can have CD quiet vinyl.

tonepub said:

And think long and hard about something to keep those records clean. If you keep your records in top shape and clean them religiously, you can have CD quiet vinyl.

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Absolutely agreed. I have 20 & 30 year old records whose surfaces are as quiet today as the day I got them. Just gotta treat 'em right and keep 'em clean.

tonepub said:

I also agree that the gap has closed dramatically. I'm just as happy listening to either.

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Interesting that you say that. I had a young lad (25yo) over a couple of weeks ago for a listening session. I first played some CDs on my PrimaLuna, and he liked the sound. Then I played some vinyl on my VPI HW19 Mk IV/JMW/Koetsu Rosewood; his face lit up and he said "YES!". After playing some vinyl for a while (we were listening to music, not doing any evaluation) I switched back to CD. After a couple of tracks he told me he was missing the vinyl, so we listened to vinyl for the rest of the session.

RichTeer said:

Absolutely agreed. I have 20 & 30 year old records whose surfaces are as quiet today as the day I got them. Just gotta treat 'em right and keep 'em clean.

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Make that x2

Please guys.

I think we've beaten this to death.

Gordon

Gordon, I did not intend to start a "which is better" thread. I used the comparison between two formats of the same piece of music as a way to describe my sonic impression.

I'm not well versed enough in this subject (analog)to offer any opinion of the qualities or lack thereof on analog playback. I do know that in the few short days I've been playing with this, I prefer CD but that is not my point of the thread. The point is an inexpensive TT brings it's shortcomings to the front quite obviously just as any source may.

That's all. No debates from me on either.

Gordon

Gordon, it doesn't really have to be a "which is better" sort of thing. The question it seemed you posed in this thread is whether it makes sense from a financial standpoint for you to spend the money and time necessary to get into analog, especially given your perception of the benefit vs. detriments of vinyl. For some, like Bernard, it is worth the investment. For someone like me, it certainly would not be worth it. I would rather spend the money on a better digital front end or more music.

As Jeff said, you should think of a table as "more" rather than "better" or "worse" than digital. It is just a different format, and only you can decide whether the perceived quality difference is worth the money and hassle involved in getting into that format.

Gordon said:

This fact was driven home today. I received a new, 200 gram Blue Note recording of Patricia Barber, A fortnight in France. I know this recording fairly well on CD. Either the vinyl is defective, I don't know what I'm doing (likely) or the table is inadequate in comparison to the level of my other gear.

So, it appears I'll have to do some searching here and elsewhere to find a table of a higher caliber. I've a budget of about 4-5K for a combination table and cart.

Thanks, I hate you guys!

Gordon

Click to expand...

Hi Gordon,
First of all please ignore the avatar....I haven't owned a Linn Sondek for over a year !! The questionability of whether vinyl is worth the hassle has been raised?
May I suggest that you could purchase an LP12 (only if you like the sound) and ask the Dealer to perform the setup - as they generally do anyway - thus making it equally hassle free? If you wanted to do it on a budget it's possible to purchase pre-owned then still ask the Dealer to do the business for you. :music:

Personally I find it to be a very robust medium. When I play CD I'm neurotic about transferring the CD directly to the tray and closing it as quickly as possible to avoid contaminants. By contrast I play vinyl in the open air with the lid off !! I just find it more relaxing overall - and not just for the sound quality.
Hope this helps.
Kind regards.............................Victor

Rich said:

For some, like Bernard, it is worth the investment. For someone like me, it certainly would not be worth it. I would rather spend the money on a better digital front end or more music.

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You have a good point there, Rich. If I did not already have an LP collection I would not get into vinyl. CD is much more convenient.

Bernard said:

Interesting that you say that. I had a young lad (25yo) over a couple of weeks ago for a listening session. I first played some CDs on my PrimaLuna, and he liked the sound. Then I played some vinyl on my VPI HW19 Mk IV/JMW/Koetsu Rosewood; his face lit up and he said "YES!". After playing some vinyl for a while (we were listening to music, not doing any evaluation) I switched back to CD. After a couple of tracks he told me he was missing the vinyl, so we listened to vinyl for the rest of the session.

Make that x2

Click to expand...

Well I hate to play the "mine's bigger than your's is..." card, but the Naim 555 is in another universe. (and so it should be for the price tag.) I still think the analog in my system has a slight edge over digital, but more often than not, I have hard core analog guys listen to the 555 and say "Wow, I'd give up my turntable for that", so it's all relative.

Bernard said:

You have a good point there, Rich. If I did not already have an LP collection I would not get into vinyl. CD is much more convenient.

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It is the point! That is the advice I give friends all the time. If you don't have a collection on vinyl already, entering the fray is prohibitively expensive and difficult. On the other hand I also advise them that if they have the vinyl then the investment in a good TT/phono stage is worth its weight in gold, musically.

tonepub said:

Well I hate to play the "mine's bigger than your's is..." card, but the Naim 555 is in another universe. (and so it should be for the price tag.) I still think the analog in my system has a slight edge over digital, but more often than not, I have hard core analog guys listen to the 555 and say "Wow, I'd give up my turntable for that", so it's all relative.

Click to expand...

Well, okay. I was comparing products with real-world prices that are accessible to mere mortals. I will concede that when dealing with stratospherically-priced items either way may take you out of this universe to Nirvana/Valhalla.

Rich said:

Gordon, it doesn't really have to be a "which is better" sort of thing. The question it seemed you posed in this thread is whether it makes sense from a financial standpoint for you to spend the money and time necessary to get into analog, especially given your perception of the benefit vs. detriments of vinyl. For some, like Bernard, it is worth the investment. For someone like me, it certainly would not be worth it. I would rather spend the money on a better digital front end or more music.

As Jeff said, you should think of a table as "more" rather than "better" or "worse" than digital. It is just a different format, and only you can decide whether the perceived quality difference is worth the money and hassle involved in getting into that format.

Click to expand...

Rich, you are quite right. I realize the shortcomings of the budget table and I'm not certain IF I want to make this leap. It is so glaringly obvious to me that to obtain any quality of playback would require a substantial investment on my part.

At this point, I'm not certain which way I'll go. I honestly believe that in the end the TT will not be a part of my playback based on a record collection of about 25 pieces.

Gordon

Gordon said:

At this point, I'm not certain which way I'll go. I honestly believe that in the end the TT will not be a part of my playback based on a record collection of about 25 pieces.

Gordon

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Gordon, given that Vinyl is about $30 a pop or more for a decent pressing, I think it just might be prohibitively expensive to get into if you don't already have a large collection. I highly recommend you try to audition the PS Audio PerfectWave Transport and Dac if you can. At $6,000 retail for the pair, it is some of the most "analog-like" sound I have ever heard from a digital player. I imagine within a year or two, you will start seeing these show up on the 'gon for around half retail price.

Hey G,

If you decide vinyl is not your cup of tea, I suspect you will be able to sell those pizzas on this site.

GG

tonepub said:

Think of the table as "more" rather than "better" and I think you'll have a good time with it. And think long and hard about something to keep those records clean. If you keep your records in top shape and clean them religiously, you can have CD quiet vinyl.

Click to expand...

This sounds to me like particularly "sound" advice. :bowdown:

To piggyback (if I may), my situation is: Quite large (about 300) vinyl albums, many in great shape, some not so great condition), been away from vinyl for many years, have vintage Dual 1229 / Dual 1019 Turntables with Shure cartridges that were thought of quite highly at the time (early 70's). Yeah, I know, I know -- I'm on the verge of geezerhood.

Anyway, realize updated equipment is appropriate, so am looking for solid recommendations on Value / "Best-Bang-for-the-Buck" Turntables / Cartridge and associated equipment, particularly including record cleaning devices.

If this has already been well discussed, please feel free to point me, although any current thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, almost forgot: Current associated equipment includes Summits and Arcam AV9 Processor and P7 Amp.

Thanks!

RichTeer said:

Your excessive sibilance problem will probably be able to be addressed (more or less) by careful cartridge alignment. If you don't already have one, get a cartridge alignment protractor and spend the time (an hour or so) to get your cartridge aligned just so. Then make sure your VTA, VTF, and anti-skate are correctly set..

Click to expand...

I second your comments, and also suggest the Cardas LP.

May I add that I find it hard to believe that the cartridge is anywhere near broken in yet. My $400 Grado cartridge sounded fairly terrible until over a dozen LP's were played. I was out of the room most of the time, but could hear it improving as early as the 5th LP.

Some reviewers suggest 300 hours + playing time before starting the review.

A good source LP is like a whole system upgrade, and you have that part right.

Len44 said:

Anyway, realize updated equipment is appropriate, so am looking for solid recommendations on Value / "Best-Bang-for-the-Buck" Turntables / Cartridge and associated equipment, particularly including record cleaning devices.

Click to expand...

What is your budget ?