Ruminations on new analog & digital sources (VPI, Dynavector, Ayre vs. Berkeley DAC)

MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum

Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

spectral

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
327
Reaction score
1
Location
NE USA
Ruminations on new analog & digital sources (VPI, Dynavector, Ayre vs. Berkeley DAC)

Following up on http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9141, I just wanted to give a brief summary and overview of the final measurements and listening impressions of my new analog and digital sources.

New analog rig: VPI Aries 3, VPI 10.5i arm Valhalla wire, Dynavector XX-2 MkII (1kOhm loading), Ayre P-5xe, Nordost Tyr XLR-to-XLR (to phono) and Kimber Hero XLR-to-XLR (to preamp), SDS; Siltech SPX-20 power cords (shielded) all around except amp, Shuhyata Sidewinder Helix CX for the amp.

The VPI combo astounded me so much from the get-go (still not broken in or tuned), that within four days of its arrival the Spectral SDR-2000 Pro DAC that I was using (and which just could not compete with the VPI, trailing it by a wide margin) underwent a head-to-head test with the Berkeley Alpha DAC, and within 6 hours it was up for sale.

So three weeks later the Berkeley Alpha DAC arrived, and was driven by the Spectral SDR-3000 xport and connected via the AES/EBU interface with a Kimber Orchid and to the preamp with Kimber 1030 silver interconnects. By then, the VPI had broken in, its speed stabilizing to 0.1% accuracy (rendering a 1 kHz tone with +-0.5Hz accuracy) and confirmed with the KAB Strobe, all grounding issues had been resolved and new Siltech shielded power cords replaced my custom Home Depot ones, all along using the Revox to measure and lower hum and noise - as a side benefit, my FM got quieter as well. At the same time, the cartridge had loosened up, tracking force is at 1.876 grams, alignment was performed with a custom MintLP Tractor (same as a Wally Tractor; Baerwald algorithm), azimuth was set using again the Revox and the Analog Productions Test LP, and VTA was adjusted to the best I could. With the subwoofer on and volume at max, there is no wild woofer motion or port chuffing when playing the silent track on the same Test LP - excellent turntable performance. With the volume at 12 o'clock (above normal listening levels) the phono stage emits just a tiny bit of hiss. With the arm floating in the air (i.e 0g VTF) and the volume at max, there is no audible feedback when tapping anywhere on the turntable or rack - a unipivot truly isolates the cartridge from external vibrations. To hear any hint of feedback with this test I had to pass the signal through the Revox at max gain, for a total gain of perhaps ~160dB for the cartridge!

With the understanding that when I talk about the VPI or the Alpha I am really referring to the entire chain that starts with the transfer to each medium, here we go...

Auditions: The differences between the VPI and the 2000 Pro were so pronounced up front, with the latter offering a very diffuse soundstage, less musicality, resolution and overall presence that it had to go - the VPI combo is just a stunner. Very soon, this became a contest between the VPI combo and the Alpha DAC, and for the direct comparison I used the best LP and CD pressings of the same material I could find. The tests were conducted by level-matching the sources and playing the same material at the same time to be able to switch back and forth, followed by listening to the each piece again this time to its entirety with each source before switching to the other.

1) Brubeck Time Out (Columbia 180g reissue vs. HDCD): This is where the 2000 Pro sounded so average that I thought the CD transfer was just horrible. After the Berkeley arrived, the overall performance was classes better, but still drier and more sterile than the LP, with less decay for all instruments, basically just OK to listen to. In sharp contrast, the entire LP is full of color, very realistic sounding, rendering the drums, sax and high hats with incredible body and realism, with an effortless and vivid presentation! Simply spectacular.
Scores: If I were to give 100 to the VPI, the Alpha gets a 92 and the 2000 Pro an 80. (100 is being used herein as a relative measurement point within this system).

For the rest of the tests, the 2000 Pro was simply sold...

2) Holst Planets (Decca, Los Angeles Phil, Mehta, 180g LP reissue vs. XRCD 24): Spectacular sound and colors from both, with a slight edge going to the turntable for a very slight (~ 1dB) rendering of dynamics which gave it a bit more presence; both sources played the 16Hz tone at the end of Uranus equally precisely with all its power and glory. I am very impressed with XRCD24.
Scores: VPI 100, Alpha 99

3) Saint Saens Symphony #3 (Munch/BSO, RCA 200g LP reissue vs XRCD2): Exactly the same rendition of the orchestra (of all things, I particularly enjoyed the long decay and sustain of the triangles, not just a 'ding', something I have not heard before in my system), except for the organ in the opening of the last movement. Here is where the similarities ended: The VPI/Dynavector/Ayre combo rendered the organ with frightening authority, presence and brio, trouncing the Alpha's sound by a wide margin. In contrast, through the Alpha the organ was fairly recessed and compressed. The VPI combo put out the WOW factor like I have never heard before in my system. This recording is branded "Stereo Spectacular" by RCA, and the LP lives up to it.
Scores: VPI 100, Alpha 97

4) Diana Krall Live in Paris (ORG 180g LP, Verve CD): Frankly, I only care about the Fly Me To The Moon track, so I concentrated on that only... Her voice is simply stunning through both sources, and they both give you that you-are-there feeling; I can't claim I can hear much of a difference between the two, except a light more air around the hi-hats through the LP, and only discernible during the A/B test. The sound is crystal clear and very musical - a very impressive recording.
Score: 100 to both

So then came the time to assess the Alpha separately with the best of the CD and HDCD recordings that I have. When playing Reference Recordings HDCD 16-bit material, I can hardly contain my excitement: Stravinsky's Rite of Spring; Rutter's Requiem; Joel Fan's World Keys; Tchaikovsky's Capriccio Italien, and so on. Spectacular sounds from all excluding none. The Alpha even manages to render Orff's Carmina Burana on the original Telarc with aplomb, a recoding that I have always felt CD cannot possibly do it justice, and certainly the Spectral 2000 Pro simply failed. With Harmonia Mundi, the sound is equally spectacular. DItto for Dorians and other XRCDs.

Conclusions: I came to the conclusion that depending on the recording and transfer to each particular medium:
1) the Alpha DAC cannot outperform the LP versions of the same material with plain 16 bit CDs but it can come awfully close;
2) CD transfers are frequently bad
3) The Alpha does outperform the VPI with RR/HDCD simply because these are higher quality recordings than anything I have on vinyl
4) The VPI combo is just spectacular and stunning and so is the Alpha with RR, Dorian and XRCD24 recordings

Finally, I expect the Alpha to be even better with hi-rez 24-bit material, perhaps next year. For now, I am very happy with the new sources, and especially the Alpha DAC and Ayre phono stage.

Peter


Update 9/27/2009 Uploaded pictures below, with additional under my system's link
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0520-2.jpg
    IMG_0520-2.jpg
    22.6 KB · Views: 1,348
  • IMG_0522-2.jpg
    IMG_0522-2.jpg
    28.9 KB · Views: 1,260
  • IMG_0532-2.jpg
    IMG_0532-2.jpg
    33.4 KB · Views: 1,378
  • IMG_0547-2.jpg
    IMG_0547-2.jpg
    34.6 KB · Views: 1,628
Last edited:
Excellent write up Peter!! I have been eyeing that Ayre phono stage for some time now and hope to one day upgrade to it. Looking forward to when you post your pictures.:rocker:

Glen
 
The only fault in your analysis is that you aren't comparing recordings that have had the same mastering.

Even when using something like Mobile Fidelity's recent works, where they press a CD (or SACD) and an LP from the same master tape, they alter the mastering to suit the medium, so many of the differences you are hearing are potentially in the mastering, not an absolute indication of either method of playback.

That's what always makes it so tough to compare the two.
 
The only fault in your analysis is that you aren't comparing recordings that have had the same mastering.

Even when using something like Mobile Fidelity's recent works, where they press a CD (or SACD) and an LP from the same master tape, they alter the mastering to suit the medium, so many of the differences you are hearing are potentially in the mastering, not an absolute indication of either method of playback.

That's what always makes it so tough to compare the two.


Not sure I totally grasp the logic in that one........ for in "theory" the masterings for both formats should be optomized for that format...correct ??

What am I missing here ??
 
Spectral,

Nice write-up.

I am casual when I compare vinyl and cd and usually just try to match spl levels with a ratshack meter.

In the majority of my listening I find the vinyl normally trounces the cd.

I love the convenience of cd but from a listening standpoint I much prefer vinyl.

Have Fun!
 
Not sure I totally grasp the logic in that one........ for in "theory" the masterings for both formats should be optomized for that format...correct ??

What am I missing here ??

That it's near impossible to judge musical differences this way, because in addition to masterings being different for format, they often use different master tapes as well.

My experience has been that with a pretty good system, as Spectral has that a CD that has had more care to the mastering and a better master tape can sound just as good or even sometimes better than the vinyl and vice versa.

Especially considering that for the last 15 years, almost nothing was mastered on analog tape.
 
That it's near impossible to judge musical differences this way, because in addition to masterings being different for format, they often use different master tapes as well.

My experience has been that with a pretty good system, as Spectral has that a CD that has had more care to the mastering and a better master tape can sound just as good or even sometimes better than the vinyl and vice versa.

Especially considering that for the last 15 years, almost nothing was mastered on analog tape.

In the end, do you agree that the fact is THESE are the recordings available to the public?
 
Not sure I totally grasp the logic in that one........ for in "theory" the mastering's for both formats should be optimized for that format...correct ?? What am I missing here ??
Only if the engineers are capable of optimizing and providing the best for the format. There is absolute proof of this problem/issue with crap and excellent recordings on all formats.

We are all familiar with certain engineers on our favorite labels on our preferred format and they have shown over the years their expertise with great releases. Michael Bishop with (ex)Telarc is one of mine.

Everyone should just listen and enjoy your preferred format and move on. No need to try and evangelize everyone who does not like your preferred format.

Spectral - Nice write up and it is good to see you have found equipment to meet your source and tonal preferences. Are you at the end of the road yet or is the audio nirvana quest still rolling onward?
 
Only if the engineers are capable of optimizing and providing the best for the format. There is absolute proof of this problem/issue with crap and excellent recordings on all formats.

understood, been discussed to death !



Everyone should just listen and enjoy your preferred format and move on. No need to try and evangelize everyone who does not like your preferred format.

I tend to 'prefer' the better recording, thus my belief that the 'best' way to go about it is to support both formats and therefore one is able to have the best of both worlds !

[/QUOTE]
 
Spectral - Nice write up and it is good to see you have found equipment to meet your source and tonal preferences. Are you at the end of the road yet or is the audio nirvana quest still rolling onward?

No system is perfect and probably will never be - this is quite evident when I visit the BSO! :ROFL: I can only claim that I just love the sound coming out of the speakers, and that I have heard much better sounds with much more expensive equipment. I am going to listening mode for a long time, with no further system changes forecast. Although I would love to play hi-rez formats now, the software just isn't there yet (in terms of volume) in order to justify the cost.
 
Peter - this is not meant in any negative way.... I know that the berkley goes for around 4K - I think... How does the cost of your analog rig compare to your digital? The reason I ask is if I ever want to get back to vinyl - the first thing I ask is - how much would it cost me if I wanted state of the art? Digital is so easy to compare - turntables, on the other hand seem to be difficult, given setup, cartridge, arm combinations, phono pre etc.... I have not heard one sound good yet in a local shop.... I'm guessing they don't know what they are doing... but, I'd have to hear the magic to be converted...and that hasn't happened. (again not meant to be negative in an analog forum!! - just my lousy experiences)....thanks tim.
 
how much would it cost me if I wanted state of the art? Digital is so easy to compare - turntables, on the other hand seem to be difficult, given setup, cartridge, arm combinations, phono pre etc.... I have not heard one sound good yet in a local shop.... I'm guessing they don't know what they are doing... but, I'd have to hear the magic to be converted...and that hasn't happened. (again not meant to be negative in an analog forum!! - just my lousy experiences)....thanks tim.

SOTA is expensive in any format. IMHO a taste of the best analog will run between $5K and $10K. True SOTA analog 10 times more. Most dealers sell analog as an after thought IMO and I agree you haven't heard good analog in most shops. Visit some analog friends if you have any and try it out that way. If your in SoCal visit Brooks Berdan in Monrovia. He does analog right. I've heard good things about audio revelations in San Diego also, haven't been myself though.
 
Yep, talk to Brooks son, Brian.

I had a great time with him in the UK last week. Sharp kid, really knows his stuff!!
 
Peter - this is not meant in any negative way.... I know that the berkley goes for around 4K - I think... How does the cost of your analog rig compare to your digital? The reason I ask is if I ever want to get back to vinyl - the first thing I ask is - how much would it cost me if I wanted state of the art? Digital is so easy to compare - turntables, on the other hand seem to be difficult, given setup, cartridge, arm combinations, phono pre etc.... I have not heard one sound good yet in a local shop.... I'm guessing they don't know what they are doing... but, I'd have to hear the magic to be converted...and that hasn't happened. (again not meant to be negative in an analog forum!! - just my lousy experiences)....thanks tim.

This is a great question... The Alpha goes for $5K. The analog cost me a total of $11.5K including the VPI 16.5 cleaning machine, KAB strobe, MintLP, et al (or $10K for just the analog hardware and cables). In addition, this price includes a total of 15% discount and there was no tax. In other words, pretty expensive if you ask me, and in fact I have NEVER spent so much money at any one point in time before or even in any 24-month period.

One of the main reasons I had been absent from analog for over 20 years is that I knew I would not be satisfied with cheap stuff and I would never want to get into the upgrade game, and in fact I did start researching much less expensive gear (like a VPI Scout plus a PS Audio phono and a basic Dynavector) and my initial budget was $5K (little that I knew), but alas nothing really satisfied me at that level.

So beware - it IS an expensive thing to get into if you want very high performance, and I can assure you, with the right electronics (and requisite recordings) you can expect spectacular sound from analog at this price level, and I don't mean that lightly... for example, I just came across http://www.avguide.com/forums/pass-lab-replacement-call-robert-harley-0 today which talks about the same Spectral electronics which can give you spectacular sound (search for SPECTRACULAR) - sorry I cannot cut and paste that text without permission.

Peter
 
Last edited:
Yeah - I figured it would be in that vicinity.... Seemed like your initial 'budget' system would be more in my range - and I know that system isn't cheap either... Well, cool - I am glad you found something that 'yanks your crank' so to speak....

Re: Southern Cal ... I live in Michigan.... I can see my wife...'Honey, we need to move to Souther Cal because I'm getting into vinyl!!'...You know what... she'd say....'OK!!!!'....uh, but not because of the vinyl....
 
Re: Southern Cal ... I live in Michigan.... I can see my wife...'Honey, we need to move to Souther Cal because I'm getting into vinyl!!'...You know what... she'd say....'OK!!!!'....uh, but not because of the vinyl....
You had better be more specific than that or she may think you have taken a kinky turn if you just say "vinyl". :D
 
To be honest I wasn't itching to get into vinyl (because of the high price of admission), but I do have a virgin collection from the '80s that I was putting together as a grad student, and more importantly, my good neighbor gave me his entire 250 record collection just recently, so this pushed me over the edge...

If you don't have a reason to get into vinyl, consider saving the money.
 
I have bitten by the computer audio bug is a HUGE way. I sold my Cdp.

Now I have a Mac Mini (with SSD & 4GB RAM) > Wavelength Cosecant V3 and couldn't be happier. I run the system via itunes / Amarra with my itouch.

Vinyl is still special but as for my precious listening time, it can't compare. I'm able to listen to more music per session and enjoy myself much more as I find it more relaxing. I think when one get's it right, you will find it hard to swap an album or Cd.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top