TT Help--"regular" vs 180g platters...

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Dreamer

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OK, I've got my turntable set up and dialed in. Most of my good-quality "general issue" and ALL of my "regular weight" audiophile pressings that I've listened to so far sound VERY good. But I have a copy of Johnny Cash's "American V: A Hundred Highways on 180g vinyl that I bought new at a record shop in Baltimore last year, and it just sounds like crap.

Now, I have a few other 180g records that sound good--modern audiophile pressings, and a few older "heavy weight" LPs from the 50's and 60's (mostly classical). So I'm thinking this Cash record isn't sounding so bad because it's an adjustment issue. If it were a disc thickness issue, I'd think ALL my heavy LPs would sound bad, but they don't.

I know that if I've set my cart and arm up to track properly on "standard weight" disks, it won't be optimum for 180g discs, but it has been my experience that they sound good anyway--much better than "regular" discs sound if I set up the cart and arm optimized for 180g discs...

I was wondering if anyone else had experience with this particular LP? I also have the CD, and it sounds delightful--a little raw and either overdriven or heavily processed in a few places, but it has a VERY live, raw sound to it on CD. On vinyl, it's severely over-modulated, glarey as heck in the highs, and has so much surface noise that it sounds like it's got sand mixed in with the vinyl. The imaging is spot-on though, and the mids are well-defined--but there's just a boatload of noise. I've cleaned it several times, and applied LAST treatment to it to no avail. I've cleaned my stylus, tried adjusting the loading on my cart--nothing helps. I'm beginning to think that either these records were made from a crappy master, or I just got a bad copy...

So does anyone else have this LP? How does YOUR copy sound?

Or does anyone have any suggestions? I REALLY like this record, and would love to hear it on vinyl, but every time I cue it up, I can barely stand to listen to more than 2 tracks...

By most of you guys standards, I'm running absolute shit for an analogue front end. Technics SL-1250 TT (rewired tonearm with VdH copper litz), Sumiko headhshell, leads, and Blue Point Cartridge (original version). Phono pre is a Carver C-4000t, and I've got the Blue Point (which is a high-output MC) plugged into the MM preamp (I can't recall what I've got the loading set at--I'm writing this from work--I'll update this when I get home...), tracking force is set to about 1.7g, and the anti-skating is set to 1.2.

I just had another thought--could this be due to the fact that I haven't had this cart defluxed in about 8 years? Granted, it was unused for 6 of those 8, but I haven't had it defluxed since 1999 or 2000. All told, this cart probably has less than 200 hour on it--I rarely listen to a record all the way through...

Thanks,
--Richard
 
Well if everything else sounds good, and this particular record sounds bad, it probably is. Isn't that the only rational conclusion?

Have you stopped to think the record could be a bootleg? I have a BBC Transcription Services copy of a live Cure show that turned out to be a bootleg. Fortunately, it is a very good bootleg and the packaging is very convincing and of high quality. But I have quite a lot of bootlegs (bought in the full knowledge that they were) that vary from very good to downright awful.

Anyway, that's a DJs TT... where are you playing next:)?
 
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You know, I never considered the possibility that this record was bootleg. I bought it from a VERY reputable vinyl dealer in Baltimore, and the packaging (included the printed paper sleeve) all look completely legit.

But then again, I did only pay $9.99 for it. That's the main reason I snapped it up--it is rare to find recent releases of 180g records for under $30 here in the US...

Perhaps you are correct. I'll contact the store next week, and see if they've had any other complaints about this record. I can't get a refund, but at least I would know if others had the same experience.

Next time I'm visiting one of my "audio-friends" who has a good analogue front end, I'll pack it along. I would be interested to hear if it plays as badly on a more "serious" setup than mine.

And although I would defer to you on most things, bro (your knowledge of audio gear is pretty impressive!) you're dead wrong on this one. The SL-1250 was NOT a DJ table. It was marketed as a high-end consumer/low-end audiophile 'table back in the '70's. It's main differences from the SL-1200 are three-fold. One, it does not have a slider control for the speed--it has separate dials for 33 and 45 rpm micro-adjustment. Two, the strobe is a fixed prism, not a pop-up cylinder. And three, it has an interchangeable spindle--single play and one of those long "auto-changer" spindles.

There is an interesting story behind my acquisition of this table. I was in a Goodwill store in VA about 10 years ago (GREAT places to find vintage "fix-er-up" gear) and one of the staff brought out a cart load of stereo gear--most of which was crap. But on top was this Technics TT. It came with everything but the box--complete factory accessory kit, manual, and the bonus of an extra SME headshell. Even the dust cover was pristine--not a single crack or chip on it. It didn't have a price on it, so I asked him if I could plug it in to see if it worked and he said yes. It spun up to 33rpm and the strobe locked dead on right away, so I asked him how much they wanted for it. He pulled out a sticker and a pen, wrote $29.99 on it, and before he could stick it to the dust cover, I was picking it up and heading for the the checkout. This thing was is such pristine condition that when I lifted the platter off to clean and oil the bearing, it still had that "new electronics" smell. I think I got a pretty good deal.

I've probably put $300 into it since then--headshell, cartridge, wiring mods--but for what I've spent, it's a great deal. Sure it's not a VPI or a Clearaudio, but I have a turntable for well under $500 that gets me probably 90% there. For the cost of a new Rega or Music Hall, I have a quartz-locked turntable that has Swiss-watch precise speed without having to worry about stretching belts, and this thing is HEAVY so isolation is pretty easy.

Someday I'll have one of those high-falutin' brand-name boutique TT's, but for now, this Technics does just fine. And knowing that I've spent less for my whole 'table (including the Sumiko Blue Point which I got NEW for $75 on clearance), I've got less in this turntable than some guys have in their "upgraded" platters. And believe me, THAT definitely adds to my enjoyment every time I spin a record. Sure I could get that extra 10%--but for me it's not worth the extra $9500.

--Richard
 
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Hm I did do a Google for that model (quickly) and it didn't come up, so I figured it'd be similar to closely numbered items.

My brother had a Technics TT (direct drive) many years ago and it was a nice piece of kit with the strobe etc. He gave up with it when his daughters put model Ponies on it and broke the stylus.

I'm glad you like it. Any chance of a pic? I'd like to see if it is the same as my brothers one.

Dreamer, I think your "90% of the way there" is pushing it... get a really good TT/arm/cart plugged into your system and you'll hear what I mean. Not wishing to sound derogatory, but whilst those old Technics decks were very good in their day, they aren't Michells/VPIs/Basis/Clearaudios etc in terms of sonic performance. And there are much better arms and carts around too.

But it's all extra $$$$$$$$$$$, as you correctly identify:(

Come to think of it, I used to spend ages looking at the strobe on that Technics - and playing with the speed control until you got minimal "drift". I agree, they do give a feeling of real precision:)
 
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Well if everything else sounds good, and this particular record sounds bad, it probably is. Isn't that the only rational conclusion?


Richard, I'm wondering the same thing as Justin ???

Also, although probably not directly related to this issue, cartridges 'wear out' so to speak even from non-usage. The suspension system for cantileaver / stylus assembly (usually some type of elastomer) does become less flexible over time regardless of how much it's used. I've heard folks say the less it's used the more rapidly this happens.

Next, there's nothing wrong with your analog rig, it's providing YOU with enjoyment first and foremost. I think us 'vinyl junkies' are some what of an endangered spiecies to begin with, so there's no need for any of us to bash even our own gear ! The more WE can discuss and work through issues the less frustrating and thus the more enjoyable the analogue experience becomes !
 
Also, although probably not directly related to this issue, cartridges 'wear out' so to speak even from non-usage.

I was thinking that perhaps this might be part of the problem. It seems that since we've moved into the new place, and I've ben spinning more vinyl, I'm not as thrilled with the sound of my trusty old BluePoint. I can remember when I first got it--it sounded AMAZING. Now, it's like, well, not so much...

Perhaps it's time to contact Sumiko and see if they'll let me trade it in for a new BP, or send it off to SoundSmith for a rebuild...


...so there's no need for any of us to bash even our own gear ! The more WE can discuss and work through issues the less frustrating and thus the more enjoyable the analogue experience becomes !

And THIS is why I love this forum so much. Even those of us who don't have mega-bucks gear are considered "part of the club", and our struggles with trying to squeeze the best sound out of the least amount of money are looked on as just another aspect of the hobby.

I really appreciate the help, guys, and I REALLY appreciate the cordiality and genuine interest you folks take in the struggles of those of us on the lower end of the totem pole, so to speak...

Time to go spin a few more "black pizzas"... :rocker:

Although maybe I should watch Mr. Fremmer's DVD about turntable setup again, as a bit of a refresher...:think:

--Richard
 
Oops... My turntable is ACTUALLY a Technics SL-1350, not a 1250...

Sorry about that confusion...

However, on a slightly different note, I'm rebuilding a pair of QRK idler-drive broadcast TTs. I've wondered at how suitable they are in a system like mine, but I recently saw that VPI has come out with an idler-wheel-drive TT, so I guss I might be on the right track. If periphery-drive idler wheels are good enough for Harry Weisfeld, they're good enough for me... ;)

--Richard
 
Better Records

You simply must go to this web-site http://www.dccblowout.com and fish around and read some of his stuff. I will purchase one of his "special" records in the not to distant future and do some comparative studies for myself. I just made a purchase from him on some "normal" records to see how his grading stacks-up. They should be here tomorrow. Really this guy is a interesting fella, with some interesting ideas about audio, and to be specific vinyl. I have talked to him in person via phone.

I have always said you gotta at least try something before you form an opinion, so that is what I will do very shortly. I would look forward to hearing if any of you have purchased his "special" recordings and if so what did you think? Jeff, how about you?

Doug - out
 
I have had a similiar experience with no logical explanation to offer. I think that the problem may simply be a bad original recording. Let me give you an example. I purchased "Let it Bleed" on 180g. It sounded like garbage, unclear and lifeless. I purchased an original copy in mint condition, washed it on my VPI and it sounded like garbage too. I went back to a "remastered" CD that I have and it does not sound very impressive either.:confused:
 
I have had a similiar experience with no logical explanation to offer. I think that the problem may simply be a bad original recording. Let me give you an example. I purchased "Let it Bleed" on 180g. It sounded like garbage, unclear and lifeless. I purchased an original copy in mint condition, washed it on my VPI and it sounded like garbage too. I went back to a "remastered" CD that I have and it does not sound very impressive either.:confused:

Is "Let It Bleed" a Decca/London original (black/blue label) or the crappy ABKCO reissue. Though none of them are great, the ABKCO is horrible while the original is just average+ sounding.
 
Agreed with Risabet on the hot stampers....
That guy charges way too much for what he delivers.

You can probably do a lot better sniffing around your local used record store.

And Dreamer, I'd highly advise NOT sending your cartridge to Soundsmith. They take forever to get anything done, and if they break your cartridge while rebuilding it you are out of luck. They were going to rebuild a Koetsu for us but said that it only had a "50-50" chance of working and if it was destroyed in the process, there was nothing they could do.

There are so many good carts in the 200-500 dollar range, and a lot of used stuff with people trading up, don't bother with the rebuild. Especially if you want to play records sooner than later......
 
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