I need some help from you TT guys

So for Christmas I first bought my son a PS Audio GPCH Phono stage and which upgraded from a Jolida. All I can say is WOW what an amazing improvement, better in every possible way. So I am a nice guy and decide as his birthday gift (6 months early, lets see if I stick to my guns) I upgrade his turntable from a Music Hall 7.1 with the standard 2.5mv MC Cart to a Music Hall 9.1 with an upgraded Goldring Elite 0.5mv MC cart.

So we set the Phono Pre to 54db and 100ohm and went to work.

We set it up our selves and dialed it in and we were set to go. The cart recommends a tracking weight of 1.7 grams. We tried that at first and YUCK; it barely even tracked on the LP. So we played with it more and boosted the weight to 2.0 grams and we found that it got a lot better. Way less brightness, way more bass and way more "right". So we played with it for about another 1 or 2 and ended on a tracking weight of 2.3 grams of tracking weight and this seemed to be the sweet spot.

Ok so it is sounding pretty good now but I have some questions:

1. Goldring and Music Hall both recommend 1.7 grams with a max of 2.0 grams of tracking weight. Why does it sound best at 2.3 and it is ok to run it with .6 more grams than recommended? Will it hurt the cart or are we doing something wrong?

2. My son and I both still think the highest of the highs are still a little to "bright" for our liking. How can we correct this? The cart is brand new with less than 20 hours on it will it "break in". I have heard that MC carts can be brighter than say a MM or a high output MC. Is this the reason?

3. Any Suggestions are always appreciated!!

Overall the new table and cart far out perform the old table and cart. Better separation, better voicing, quieter. Just better except for the highest of the highs.

Associated equipment:
Conrad Johnson Amp
Conrad Johnson Pre
PS Audio Phono (as mentioned)
Dali Helicon 800 MK2 Speakers
JL Audio F113 Sub
Shunyata Power Conditioner
Tara labs IC on the turntable
Acoustic Zen Hologram 2 Speaker Wire

Thoughts and always thanks for your time!!!
:bowdown::bowdown:

First off Diamonds what did you use to measure / verify the VTF ? is everything perfectly level ? how about azimuth ?


Next, again this is, IMO, ditch the Goldring (FWIW, I had the same TT and cartridge befor my VPI set-up and I concur with you and your son....too bright and edgy on the upper freq).

I can heartily recomend a super combanation for that arm and table..... Benz MIcro "Ace" medium output.

yes the azimuth is right on and the VTF is money so we are good there. The cart is brand new so he will have to live with it for a while. Down the road i will look into getting him a Benz. That is what I will be putting on my new well old Music Hall 7.1 table.

Thanks for the input I do appreciate it!

twich54 said:

First off Diamonds what did you use to measure / verify the VTF ? is everything perfectly level ? how about azimuth ?


Next, again this is, IMO, ditch the Goldring (FWIW, I had the same TT and cartridge befor my VPI set-up and I concur with you and your son....too bright and edgy on the upper freq).

I can heartily recomend a super combanation for that arm and table..... Benz MIcro "Ace" medium output.

Click to expand...

One more thing - Did you have the Goldring Elite Cartridge or the standard Erotica LX Low Output cart?

Diamonds said:

yes the azimuth is right on and the VTF is money so we are good there.

Click to expand...

I'm confussed ?? for you said your VTF was 2.3 grams and 2.0 was the max recomended, correct ?? Me thinks you've got your VTF (vert tracking force) and VTA (vert tracking angle) mix-ed up !

So, again.....what did you use to measure your VTF ??

twich54 said:

I'm confussed ?? for you said your VTF was 2.3 grams and 2.0 was the max recomended, correct ?? Me thinks you've got your VTF (vert tracking force) and VTA (vert tracking angle) mix-ed up !

So, again.....what did you use to measure your VTF ??

Click to expand...

I am obviously very confusing when I write. VTF was measured with a stylus gauge and that is how I came to 2.3 grams. So when I say it is money, I meant is I know exactly where it was set. So it's not like I think it is 2.3 grams but it is actually 4.5 grams. Am I making more sense yet???

Thanks again for your expertise in this matter!!!

Diamonds said:

VTF was measured with a stylus gauge and that is how I came to 2.3 grams. So when I say it is money, I meant is I know exactly where it was set. So it's not like I think it is 2.3 grams but it is actually 4.5 grams. Am I making more sense yet???

Click to expand...

Well......were getting closer !

Ok, next question what did you use for a gauge ? was it a Shure style (fulcrum level style) or a digital guage. for while the Shure style gauge is adequete for many applications there is know way to properly "tare it" like a good digital gauge. This could account for 1/4 to 1/2 gram possibly.

twich54 said:

Well......were getting closer !

Ok, next question what did you use for a gauge ? was it a Shure style (fulcrum level style) or a digital guage. for while the Shure style gauge is adequete for many applications there is know way to properly "tare it" like a good digital gauge. This could account for 1/4 to 1/2 gram possibly.

Click to expand...

It was a digital gauge a local hifi shop let him borrow.

I called my son and had him lower to it to 2.0 grams and he is listening now. But his immediate impression was that he likes it better at 2.0 grams rather than 2.3 grams. When we were setting it up I was listening and he was doing the adjusting. So my ears are obviously different than his and I am just plain OLD!

I will tell you his overall thoughts tonight with the change from 2.3 to 2.0 grams. Again 1.7 to 1.8 grams is recommended by Goldring.

Diamonds said:

One more thing - Did you have the Goldring Elite Cartridge or the standard Erotica LX Low Output cart?

Click to expand...

Ah yes, mine was not the 'Elite', which brings up another point, albeit a generality !..... My ears have told me over the years that when selecting a low output MC (.25mV or lower) one needs to be even more prudent with respect to phono-pre selection and said synergy.

I'm suspect the additional gain needs of the low-output MC and your Phono-pre could have some impact on the HF dislike you mention.

what does your cartridge like to be loaded at ? can the phono-pre be tailored to suit ?

twich54 said:

Ah yes, mine was not the 'Elite', which brings up another point, albeit a generality !..... My ears have told me over the years that when selecting a low output MC (.25mV or lower) one needs to be even more prudent with respect to phono-pre selection and said synergy.

I'm suspect the additional gain needs of the low-output MC and your Phono-pre could have some impact on the HF dislike you mention.

what does your cartridge like to be loaded at ? can the phono-pre be tailored to suit ?

Click to expand...

Thankfully the PS Audio is very adjustable.

The Cart Specs are:
Elite Cartridge Specifications
Frequency Response 20Hz-30kHz±2 dB
Channel Balance 1dB max. @ 1kHz
Channel Separation 25dB min. @ 1kHz
Sensitivity 0.5mV±1dB
Static Compliance 18mm/N
Equivalent tip mass 0.35 mg
Vertical Tracking Angle 20°
Stylus Radius Gyger I
Stylus Type Non-Replaceable
Load Resistance 100 Ohm
Load Capacitance 100-500pF
Internal Inductance 2 µH
Internal Resistance 8 Ohm
Cartridge Weight 5.7g
Fixing Centre 0.5” (12.7mm)
Playing Weight 1.5-2.0g (1.7g nom.)

The Phonostage Specs are:
Gain:
48/54/60/66dB Balanced Output
42/48/54/60dB Unbalanced Output

Loading:
100/500/1k/47k ohms

As you can tell I stink at this!!

But I am remembering from 20 years ago when I used to run high-end tables.

Give it a little more break-in time (althouh twenty hours should be fine) and don't be afraid to experiment with differnet loadings.

Oh, I forgot to mention.......the MMf 9.1 is a very nice table, should provide your son plenty of listening enjoyment for a long time !

twich54 said:

Give it a little more break-in time (althouh twenty hours should be fine) and don't be afraid to experiment with differnet loadings.

Oh, I forgot to mention.......the MMf 9.1 is a very nice table, should provide your son plenty of listening enjoyment for a long time !

Click to expand...

One last question does the extra couple of grams on the cartridge matter? Enjoy your weekend. Thanks again!

The extra couple of grams on the cartridge will destroy your records and ruin the suspension in the cartridge.... I would advise not going more than a tenth of a gram over the max suggested tracking force for both reasons.

Here's three cartridges that work great with the 9.1, depending on your musical taste:

The Sumiko blackbird is more on the fast and detailed side, $900
Dynavector 17D3 is very neutral, $900
Shelter 501 II is more warm and romantic but very musical, $850

I've used all three of those on this table with excellent results and any
of the three will be a HUGE jump over the Music Hall cart.

Happy shopping.

tonepub said:

The extra couple of grams on the cartridge will destroy your records and ruin the suspension in the cartridge.... I would advise not going more than a tenth of a gram over the max suggested tracking force for both reasons.

Here's three cartridges that work great with the 9.1, depending on your musical taste:

The Sumiko blackbird is more on the fast and detailed side, $900
Dynavector 17D3 is very neutral, $900
Shelter 501 II is more warm and romantic but very musical, $850

I've used all three of those on this table with excellent results and any
of the three will be a HUGE jump over the Music Hall cart.

Happy shopping.

Click to expand...

Like I said to Dave, he just got this and I paid a bit extra for this cart so he can live with it for a while. I spoke to him about an hour ago and he has lowered the tracking force to 1.95 grams and he seems to enjoy it better there. I do appreciate your feedback as always.

Diamonds said:

One last question does the extra couple of grams on the cartridge matter? Enjoy your weekend. Thanks again!

Click to expand...

I agree with Jeff, a couple of tenths...ok, a couple of grams.... nope !

twich54 said:

I agree with Jeff, a couple of tenths...ok, a couple of grams.... nope !

Click to expand...

According to my son he has pushed it back to 1.90 grams and he says it sounds better. Less strain on the hi frequencies which is good. Thanks again guys! More questions to come I am sure.

You guys rock!:rocker::rocker:
:music::music: