Tube Amp for Ascents - Advice Needed

Ok, so I am thinking about going with a tube amp this time around and am curious how many watts would be sufficient to run my Ascents. I have never owned a tube amp before so I really need so good advice. There is a CJ MV50with 45RMS into 4,8 or 16 that is close to me. Would this do the job or should I be looking for something bigger.

Thanks in advance for the input!

Glad to see your back at it Jim. I wish I could help ya on the tube stuff but I am not the man to ask !

Any ways welcome Back !

Hello Jim,
No help here either "Friends dont let friends run tubes"

My SS system here: http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=169

I'll have a stab. Tube amps are weird beasts - an 80W rating from one won't be the same as 80W from another.

I think you need more than 45W, though... an MC275 will probably do an OK job, but I'd aim for around 100W if you ever listen really loudly.

My 80W tube amp is not normal - it is capable of driving Ascents really loudly with no audible strain. The spec says it is a nominal 80W, but with a max output of 130W.

The only real way is to try it if it is less than 75Watts, I would say. And if you like it loud, I'd make sure the 75Watts was OK before you bought it.

Observations based only personal experience only... and if the amp quotes good power figures into low impedance loads, so much the better.

I did run a 55 watt tube on my monoliths and found it under powered. If you are not going to bi-amp I would say a minimum of 100 watts are needed.

Here's another amp you might try that I've had excellent luck with the Summit, Sprire and now the CLX:

The BAT VK55 SE...

Amazingly good with the ML speakers and have a very low impedance tap which works quite well. Much more extended and dynamic than the MC275 (Which I own, so no offense towards MC275 lovers).

If you can find a dealer with one to lend you I think you will be pleasantly surprised!

Jeff,

Do you feel 55 watts are enough? The Ascents have woofers that must also be driven by the amp. Again I know it is not the same animal but 55 watts just did not cut it with my speakers. I know the BAT can be set up as a 110 watt monoblock. Is this what you are thinking?

Hello Jim,

I currently have a McIntosh MC275 driving my Vantages and it does so very well. It used to be hooked up to Aeon's before I upgraded and it performed excellent, even at loud volumes. Of course one persons loud may be anothers quiet, but if you are able to audition this amp and others mentioned that will be a better way to determine what you would be satisfied with. Just keep in mind that the MC275 is actually putting out over 90 watts if it is one of the later renditions and if you add another at a later date then you could monoblock them for over 150 watts per channel. Another tube amp to take a look at would be the VTL line. I wish I could be of more assistance, but the Mac has been very good to me and many others who own Martin Logans. Good luck and have fun!!

Glen

I think it depends on the music you listen to and how loud.
I'm pretty amazed at how loud this BAT amp will play. It has
a lot more oomph with the ML's than my MC275 has.

I would certainly suggest a demo if you can arrange it and see
what you think.

It's doing a really good job with the CLX's too, which are less efficient than
the Summit, Spire or Vantage too.

If you have the budget, check out a pair of Manley 250's. That's my favorite choice for the ML's so far. But in all fairness, I haven't heard any of the new ARC ref power amps, which have been excellent wherever I've heard them.

What's the sensitivity rating of the Ascent?
My own experience tells me that you'll need at least 60W/Ch. The Mc275 is a great choice, but forget wattage for a moment. The transformers that a manufacturer chooses is just as critical, as is the power supply, circuit topology, feedback, etc., so take a very close look at what you're interested in buying. Quality of components and overall stability of the circuit, and how it behaves presented with difficult loads, in summation, mean as much or more than power ratings.
HTH!

J Lustig said:

Ok, so I am thinking about going with a tube amp this time around and am curious how many watts would be sufficient to run my Ascents. I have never owned a tube amp before so I really need so good advice. There is a CJ MV50with 45RMS into 4,8 or 16 that is close to me. Would this do the job or should I be looking for something bigger.

Thanks in advance for the input!

Click to expand...

I used a pair of Vantages with my PrimaLuna ProLogue Sevens. Very nice match!

Kenscollick said:

Hello Jim,
No help here either "Friends dont let friends run tubes"

Click to expand...

Them's fightin' words, pardner!

Tube60 said:

What's the sensitivity rating of the Ascent?
My own experience tells me that you'll need at least 60W/Ch. The Mc275 is a great choice, but forget wattage for a moment. The transformers that a manufacturer chooses is just as critical, as is the power supply, circuit topology, feedback, etc., so take a very close look at what you're interested in buying. Quality of components and overall stability of the circuit, and how it behaves presented with difficult loads, in summation, mean as much or more than power ratings.
HTH!

Click to expand...

90 Db. Ignore that, though. Pretty sure the 'cent manual sez 80-200 Watts.

Pretty wise post, Tube60.

It's all about system synergy.

Find the setup that works for you....

Kenscollick said:

Hello Jim,
No help here either "Friends dont let friends run tubes"[/url]

Click to expand...

That's a classic manifestation among the higher primates of what I've labeled the Coconut Response; specifically, the tendency of said higher primates, when faced with something they don't understand, to run up a tree and scream, throwing coconuts at what they don't understand. And of course to try and steer their friends away from it too.:ROFL:
Back to topic: Also among your amp explorations, consider a Citation II. They're relatively easy to rebuild, and Jim McShane on his Website goes over various tweaks and improvements for that amp. Personal bias, of course, since I've got one driving my Sequels! They're absolutely stable no matter what kind of load they're driving. And they're not commanding a king's ransom for a good one.

CJ sound update

I just started running a Conrad Johnson Evolution 2000 amp (400 watt) in my Ascent system. This is a hybrid amp (not fully tube) In short I love this amp for its sheer power, headroom, and control it seems to offer. I must admit I was running a Threshold 300 Stasis II for years and thought it was great.........and it was. But this CJ piece is on a entirely different plane.

Dynamic contrast is more apparent, tone texture are palpable, and the Image (which I have always had issue with in my room) is better than ever. If I'm being honest the image is still not entirely where I would like to see it, but the CJ helped to bring it closer. I do have some room acoustic issues that will probably never be solved, and no amp will ever help. So I can throw a heavy endorsement for the Conrad Johnson product if they all perform in a like fashion.

Doug - out

I highly recommend you consider biamping your ascents with a tube amp running the panels (something between 50 and 200 watts should work fine, assuming it is well-designed and built) and a solid state amp running the woofers (200 wpc to 400 wpc would be recommended).

I ran my Ascents for awhile with a CJ Premier 140 (140 wpc) tube amp and was very pleased with the sound. After reading a lot of opinions on biamping, I decided to try it. I put some Outlaw Audio 2200 monoblocs (200 wpc and only $600 for the pair) on the woofers and the sound improved tremendously! I wasn't just getting more articulate bass. The sound improved along the whole frequency range. Smoother mids, clearer highs, tighter bass and just better dynamics, soundstage, and imaging overall. I think tube amps excel on ML's when they are relieved of the woofer duties, and solid state amps do a much better job with bass.

I recommend one of the new Class D amps, like ML uses in their newer speakers. Or go with a really good classic SS amp like a used Krell or Sunfire.

Just keep in mind that you need to find amps that have similar voltage gains or you will need to purchase an in-line attenuator to match your gains. If you were to go with a quality tube amp of around 75 wpc to 100 wpc, and a good solid state amp of from 200 to 400 wpc, I think you will be amazed at how good your ascents will sound.

FWIW - If you're thinking ARC used:

Classic 60 will not cut it. Tried one on my old Sequel IIs and they run out of gas. No dynamics and an exaggerated upper mid.

VT100 III - ameliorates all the problems that I had with the Cl 60. I'd recommend it.

The CJ by itself is not enough to drive the Ascents to satisfactory level. Wooly bass comes to mind just because the CJ has been known for "soft bass". A peek at your system shows that you already have a Classe' CA301 on hand, ready for bass duty. Now, the CJ on the panels, complemented by the Classe' on the woofers will make beautiful music on your Ascents. That's very easy to say in concept, but to follow through, you'll need to pay attentions to the details. Namely, matching gains between the 2-amps in a passive bi-amping configuration. A quick peek at the specs yiels:

1. CJ MV55 has 17.2db of gain.
2. Classe' CA301 has 29.0db of gain

To match the gains, you'll need to attenuate the signal going to the Classe' by -12db to bring it down to 17db. You can achieve this goal cheaply by getting the 12db inline attenuator from Parts Express and put them between the preamp and the Classe'.
Once the CJ is freed of the stressful bass duty of the woofers, you'll be treated with magical midrange & natural highs on the panels.

Good Luck
Spike

Thanks for all the feedback. I have enjoyed reading and learning about the tube world. First of all, I just updated my system description as it has undrgone significant changes. The Classe is unfortunately gone. Financial difficulties in the summer forced the sale of the Classe and the CJ PV10.

I have recently started to rebuild and am trying to take advantage of the bad economy this time. I just picked up a CJ PV12 on Ebay for what I felt to be a steal. Now I need an amp to match with it. I should have mentioned in the first post that finances are still a limiting factor. At the most, I have about $1000 to work with for an amp.

As far as how I listen, I very rarely crank it up. I do like it loud but rarely have the opportunity to really push it. I would be happy with an amp that can bring back all the characteristics I loved about the previous set up but at half the price. I guess my thought on the bi-amp thing is that while I can't afford two amps right now, I could do a tube amp for starters and always look at picking up a SS later to pair with it.

If anybody has any recommendations for tubes around the 1k range, please let me know. There have been a couple of CJ MV75 on Agon lately so I may try to go after one of those if I can get a solid deal.

Thanks again for all the feedback!