Is Roger Sanders Losing The Plot?

This looks to have been on YouTube for a while, but I saw it for the first time today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoihNZpGlBw

Sander's is losing the plot - massless drivers, zero distortion, forever lasting non-failing ESLs. 1400 Watts too - really DO NOT think that is necessary, Roger.

C'mon Sander's - you're an engineer - you know ALL those assertions are NOT true.

I am sure he has a great product, and he has had some excellent postings to the positive on this site. But the statements made in this video are simply taking things too far...

Pull the other one, so to speak.

Kinda like Musical Fidelity too!

Yeah - hey - you wouldn't believe it - but my Tri-Vista has started working again. The past three times I have used it it has played disc after disc without a single mis-track. Mad. Sure it won't last, though.

While I think his claims are sometimes a little off the wall, anyone who was at RMAF (and others that weren't) can attest to the fact that he has very good sounding products.

Although Sander are good you better have a vice mounted to your chair to pin your head in the exact sweet spot !

C.A.P said:

Although Sander are good you better have a vice mounted to your chair to pin your head in the exact sweet spot !

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Touché, however the Logans with smaller panels (like the Sources and Purities in particular... I don't know about Vistas or Vantages) have very small sweet spots as well.

User211 said:

This looks to have been on YouTube for a while, but I saw it for the first time today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoihNZpGlBw

Sander's is losing the plot - massless drivers, zero distortion, forever lasting non-failing ESLs. 1400 Watts too - really DO NOT think that is necessary, Roger.

C'mon Sander's - you're an engineer - you know ALL those assertions are NOT true.

I am sure he has a great product, and he has had some excellent postings to the positive on this site. But the statements made in this video are simply taking things too far...

Pull the other one, so to speak.

Click to expand...

Hmmm... I think the plot is as follows.... This is an engineer trying to do Marketing... Sometimes it doesn't work out too well... These were the same types of statements made for Innersound speakers as well. So - basically he is trying to send the same message... Is it me - or do those speakers look an awful lot like the old Innersounds? Trying to figure out what the source was - the turntable wasn't playing.....

timm said:

These were the same types of statements made for Innersound speakers as well. So - basically he is trying to send the same message... Is it me - or do those speakers look an awful lot like the old Innersounds?

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Roger Sanders was the chief designer at Innersound, hense the resemblence. He left the company before they folded, but still owns all of the designs and associated I.P.

User211 said:

Yeah - hey - you wouldn't believe it - but my Tri-Vista has started working again. The past three times I have used it it has played disc after disc without a single mis-track. Mad. Sure it won't last, though.

Click to expand...

Shame my A2 never just "started working again" - stupid bit of crap that was.

Have you tried rubbing the laser assembly with methelayted spirits? That has worked for me on "dead" CD and DVD players. Only try when is totally up sh1t though - you might cause damage!

I bought a CD disk cleaner. It had no effect, though. It's just a disk with some bristles and a cleaning solution.

Anyway, if it ain't broke... well, at least for the moment!

and no offense, but he claims he invented the MartinLogan curved ESL panel which is NOT true....

Hm... I think what Roger needs to realise is that he is in "niche market high end city", so to speak.

The kind of people with $12,000 to spend on a pair of 10a speakers are likely to be very clued up indeed. So the best way to sell to them is to be accurate in your descriptions, and of course, produce a killer product. He may have achieved the 2nd from the reports we have had here, but please realise the first!

Chris's comment reminds me of a scene in Casino where Joe Pesci has a man's head in a vice - and his assistant is aptly applying the pressure - in order to get the guy to tell the truth (well, divuldge a name - but you get the idea!)

User211 said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoihNZpGlBw

Sander's is losing the plot - massless drivers, zero distortion, forever lasting non-failing ESLs. 1400 Watts too - really DO NOT think that is necessary, Roger.

Click to expand...

- The diaphram film in these electrostats is thin and light enough to be considered "massless". Technically, the film has mass but it's as light if not lighter than air.
- The distortion is so low it's not really measurable. These claims apply to most modern electrostats including ML.
- Forever lasting non-failing? Now that is stretching it. Does he guarantee them for life?
- 1400 watt amps. (at how many ohms?) That is feasible but is this much really necessary? And was he debuting a new amp product? McIntosh make 1200 watt amplifiers. What's the impact on the electric bill?
- The music he was playing was: "Tin Pan Alley" by Stevie Ray Vaughn. Probably, off the "Texas Flood" SACD. Good choice. I'll be playing that tonight.

They seem to be a nice electrostat but I prefer my Summits with their curved panel, powered woofers, relatively low power requirement, possibility for a manufacture provided upgrade (Summit-X) and excellent company support.

last time this came up I gave sanders a hard time for saying that he invented
the curved panel and that was wrong approach. I actually think he came across better here and I will have to say that I like the way the stators look
on the 10a's.

I thought his speakers sounded excellent at the show, but as has been said, the sweet spot was very narrow. The trim work on the bass enclosure, however was very poor, as the edge stripping wasn't one piece per side, which looked cheap.

Craig said:

The music he was playing was: "Tin Pan Alley" by Stevie Ray Vaughn. Probably, off the "Texas Flood" SACD. Good choice. I'll be playing that tonight.

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Your first two points about mass & distortion I think most will agree with but why can't he just say near zero mass and very low distortion? May be I am just getting too pedantic.

I think I'll check that out too. As a guitar player, Stevie is rated in all the mags I read...

slowGEEZR said:

I thought his speakers sounded excellent at the show, but as has been said, the sweet spot was very narrow. The trim work on the bass enclosure, however was very poor, as the edge stripping wasn't one piece per side, which looked cheap.

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not to sound like jerk but I agree and will say that a lot of his stuff looks home made and at 11k or whatever it should not. just gotta love the Martin Logan !!!

This is why in almost all cases, you are way better off buying an expensive piece of gear from a major mfr.

Those of you that have been to the Martin Logan factory know what I mean.

For those of you that have not, there are about 80 people working there in quite a few buildings and EVERYTHING in that plant has a purpose. There is plenty of engineering talent and the people there that build your ML's have been doing their job for a long time. That experience is worth something.

Unfortunately, these guys that make gear in small quantities just don't have the resources to produce top quality on a consistent level and even the few that can, have to pass that cost on to the customer.

While you pay a larger part of your dollar for a product from a company like ML (or McIntosh, Naim, Meridian, etc) because of their labor force, you also pay a lot less for parts and R&D because they can spread that labor cost out a lot further.

I'm not saying mr. Sanders doesn't make decent stuff. But it's certainly a thought when you are writing the check. And I've had enough (mostly bad) experiences with boutique products over the last 30 years, that I'm spending my money on the stuff from the majors going forward.

tonepub said:

I'm not saying mr. Sanders doesn't make decent stuff. But it's certainly a thought when you are writing the check. And I've had enough (mostly bad) experiences with boutique products over the last 30 years, that I'm spending my money on the stuff from the majors going forward.

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Very good point. My Forsell turntable is such a boutique item. Yes, it's fantastic and I love it, but doesn't really ooze the construction quality one would expect of such an expensive piece of kit.

It's working fine now (fingers crossed), but I will probably replace it with something like the SME Model 30/2, just for the peace of mind buying from an established long-term player in the high end business brings to the deal.

User211 said:

This looks to have been on YouTube for a while, but I saw it for the first time today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoihNZpGlBw

Sander's is losing the plot - massless drivers, zero distortion, forever lasting non-failing ESLs. 1400 Watts too - really DO NOT think that is necessary, Roger.

C'mon Sander's - you're an engineer - you know ALL those assertions are NOT true.

I am sure he has a great product, and he has had some excellent postings to the positive on this site. But the statements made in this video are simply taking things too far...

Pull the other one, so to speak.

Click to expand...

Let's give Roger a bit of a break, as others have stated he was doing a bit of Marketing and claims tend to be overstated. (massless vs very low mass). Rogers' claims are certainly less wild than what I read in most audiophile magazines (my apology Jeff for the gross generalization) especially in the ads or articles written by the manufactures. As for no failuers Rodger does back all of his products (speakers included) with a lifetime transferable warranty (ML warranties are 5 years and not transferable).

The 1400 wpc he claims is at 8 ohms (the powered woofer in the 10a has a 600wpc amp) and he was using his mono-blocks (800 wpc) for the panels. I drive my summits with 400 wpc for the woofers (each has a 200 w amp) and a Sanders mono block for the panel so not so different or outrageous in the ML world either.

As for the small sweet spot (I do not have a pair of 10b) so I can not comment, I although I do believe it. But the sweet spot of my Summits is only one chair wide, it is not there if you sit on either side of my chair.

I hate to be an apologist for Roger, but I do not want to see him trashed unfairly now either. I do not think his claims are any worse that what you see from the other high end major manufactures.

--burke