nsgarch has decided to leave the site..

[TomDac]

Hey all,
based on some issues he's had with another equally valuable member of the site, Neil (nsgarch) has voluntarily decided to "leave us".

It's unfortunate that not everyone can get along with each other in this world, but that is reality.

Tom.

[User211]

I'll second that. It is a real shame. Since quotes seem to be the order of the day around here, I'll re-iterate one of my favourites, from the days when Morrissey was in The Smiths and was really rather good...

"Love, peace and harmony - very nice, but maybe in the next world."

I just hope we haven't lost both of them in a "double whammy".

[jtwrace]

I just wonder who the other member was?

[RichTeer]

I just wonder who the other member was?

A quick read of the "Decent back in for 2ch" thread would reveal that, I think...

[MiTT]

I'm disappointed because there was a "kinder, gentler" Neil over the past few months. None the less, there was a real issue with one other memeber who, similarly, is a reall asset to the community as a whole. Sorry it didn't work out, and yet, things always change and life goes on.

User 211, love the Smiths quote, I've been on a Smiths/Morrisey tear lately. Man what a band they were. Got to see them once up in Boulder on the "Meat is Murder" tour. Life changing is not too strong a phrase.

[theWB]

A quick read of the "Decent back in for 2ch" thread would reveal that, I think...

I know if I was Neil, I would have been offended by the this post.
http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showpost.php?p=82693&postcount=16

As one who reads this forum almost daily, You come to know some of the different personalities on the site. Neil can be blunt, opinionated, sarcastic, and sardonic, and yes he can come off as an elitist sometimes,( I think by his own admission), But never disrespectful.
I for one will miss his posts.

Lugano is another member who has left us, because of a run in with someone on this site. He also was opinionated and had a great sarcastic sense of humor. I miss his presence on this site as well.

I think we can all agree to disagree without resorting to name calling and personal attacks.

Just my .02

[amey01]

Is that why Lugano left?

Anyway, I'm here for the difference of opinion. If I only wanted one opinion, I'd be happy with my own and wouldn't need something like this site!

I too, think it's a shame, but at least we haven't lost two!

[User211]

Anyway, I'm here for the difference of opinion. If I only wanted one opinion, I'd be happy with my own and wouldn't need something like this site!

That's cool - if we all thought the same thing, it'd be pretty bl**dy boring, after all.

Mitt - The Smiths - yup, they were great! Johnny Marr's guitar was out of this world, and during that time, Morrissey's lyrics were fantastic. And by and large, all the vinyl pressings, at least UK side, where excellent, too. I'll cue some up sometime this week - have a real session, for old times sake!:)

And Tom - that new Kings of Leon album is pretty fab. Just ordered it - on vinyl:).

[eknuds01]

It's always unfortunate when this happens. I thought a few of Niel's posts were rather arrogant at times, but he did have many, many informative posts. Clearly he's a very knowledgeable and intelligent person, but I wish he could respect the positions and thougts of others.

[Rich]

Anyway, I'm here for the difference of opinion. If I only wanted one opinion, I'd be happy with my own and wouldn't need something like this site!

I absolutely disagree with you, Amey. :p

As for Neil leaving (and for that matter Lugano), I do have some strong opinions but I don't think it is appropriate to air them.

I will say this. Lot's of us, myself included, have been over the top on occasion and said things that were out of line. It is imperative that we find ways of communicating around our differences without attacking each other personally. I am trying to do this myself and it isn't always easy, although my limited time to post lately has made it a little easier by default. I have found that it is best for me to just ignore posts by users whose personalities I don't like and whose perspectives I don't respect. I had already reached this point with Neil.

[DrJRapp]

I find that people who invest in a speaker like MLs are generally passionate people, and quite often that passion may be displayed in ways or areas where there are disagreements. Staying around a group like this requires a lot of patience and tolerance and somewhat of a thick skin.

If one is thin skinned then perhaps the only answer is to to vote with your feet.

[TomDac]

For what it's worth, I received a lot of complaints about Neil's condescending elitist tone in the years since the site first started.

He rubbed many people the wrong way, including me at times, yet he often provided very excellent posts, so I think many of us ignored the bad...

While not being mean or disrespectful to others directly, he had a way of making people feel stupid, which in turn drove them away from the site.

When I tried to present my position to him regarding this latest episode with another senior member, he got very defensive and angry with me that I would not take his position. He spewed forth some derogatory remarks about my ability to judge people and run the website and ultimately, these insults as he made his exit are what sealed his fate.

While initially I wasn't sure what should be done about this situation, I gave him enough rope in the hopes that he'd hang himself with it and he did just that, which made my decision an easy one.

Also, please keep in mind that Dave, Tim and I do not monitor every thread on the site - we rely on you guys and gals to give us "heads up" when things flare up like this, which unfortunately happens on web forums.

[User211]

Well, he gave me some A+++++++ advice on a new phono cartridge (well, 2nd hand actually, but not very 2nd hand:D) - an absolutely brilliant item. I'm bowled over by it.

I haven't known him for as long as you guys. But he was extremely nice and helpful to me. I'm very grateful to him.

However, I did see some of the recent discourse "behind the scenes" and it does seem to me to be mutually beneficial that he has decided to leave. Both sides seem to have had enough, methinks!

Time is a great healer of wounds, however. And as some people have said on another thread, they don't come here for people to agree with them, they come for the opposing or differing view. By the sound of things, Neil certainly offered that. He also had and has a very deep insight into things that most don't offer. Whether you agree with the conclusions he made based upon those perceptions and how radically he felt about them, or perhaps put them, is, of course, another matter.

[TomDac]

And Tom - that new Kings of Leon album is pretty fab. Just ordered it - on vinyl:).

Glad you like the KOL CD.. I really do also... :music:

[twich54]

And as some people have said on another thread, they don't come here for people to agree with them, they come for the opposing or differing view. By the sound of things, Neil certainly offered that. .

Agreed, BUT .......while "milk toast and honey" are not required to post here, arrogance and "holier than thou" attitudes tend to be counter productive. Nothing wrong with a heated debate, challenge is to not make it personal, for all of us, myself included !

[amey01]

While I don't necessarily think Neil should have been banned (at least not permanently), I must admire the way you do your job Tom.

You were just a Martin Logan loving guy that happened to install a copy of vBulletin and now you find yourself a community leader/personality manager/schoolyard fight moderator/dispute resolver. That is not trivial task, and one you do extremely well.

Thanks again.

[Rich]

While I don't necessarily think Neil should have been banned (at least not permanently), I must admire the way you do your job Tom.

I understand your point, Amey. And I think it was entirely within Neil's power to keep from being banned by stepping back, cooling off, and approaching this situation from a more reasonable perspective. The clue is Tom's statement that:


When I tried to present my position to him regarding this latest episode with another senior member, he got very defensive and angry with me that I would not take his position. He spewed forth some derogatory remarks about my ability to judge people and run the website and ultimately, these insults as he made his exit are what sealed his fate.

While initially I wasn't sure what should be done about this situation, I gave him enough rope in the hopes that he'd hang himself with it and he did just that, which made my decision an easy one.

It is one thing to get into a heated debate with someone on the forum and say some things you might later regret. Many of us have done it at one time or another (perhaps some of us more than others). But when you are called out for that sort of behavior by a moderator of the site, then it is time to step back and look at things from a cooler perspective. Instead of being contrite and apologetic, Neil chose to be argumentative, accusatory, and abusive toward Tom. That sort of behavior, in my mind, absolutely justifies a permanent ban from the site. Neil's behavior showed a complete lack of respect for other members of the site and for Tom's position as the founder and moderator of the site. This is too good a community to allow that sort of behavior to continue.

[TomDac]

Thanks for the support everyone... It's greatly appreciated..

Your PMs have been overwhelming...

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming... :music:

[timm]

hope it wasn't my 'Descent back in 2ch' thread that was the culprit... I didn't realize it was so controversial!! Anyway, nothing in that thread bothered me - just a little jousting back and forth....but-some helpful tips nonetheless... Anyway guys - all of you-members,moderators etc...- thanks for the great site - and it is nice that this place is not like AudioAsylum (don't know if you had ever been on the Hi-Rez board....)... Tom - maybe you need to create a 'makeup' room where offenders need to go and say something 'nice' to one another... :)

[Rich]

hope it wasn't my 'Descent back in 2ch' thread that was the culprit... I didn't realize it was so controversial!!

Do you know anything about high-end audio? How could you not realize how controversial that topic is? I am surprised you weren't banned just for bringing it up. :ROFL:

Seriously, though . . . this had been brewing for some time. Nsgarch had been dismissive, condescending and just plain rude to another valued member of the forum several times previously and had been called out for it by more than a few of us. Ultimately, it was his poor attitude that got him banned, and nothing more.

[Bernard]

Witness the current "Considering McIntosh amps - opinions" thread.

Looks like the post got deleted.

[itzpms]

my grandma told me that if i can't say something nice about someone,
don't say anything at all.

[User211]

I'm not sure what's happened here, Gordon, but you were wrong. I have just spoken to the man himself about it. Believe me - he did not post!

[C.A.P]

Please do not disparage Neil. He is not here and can not defend himself. This shows lack of character. Neil left on his own terms and was not banned. He would not post under a pseudonym. Thank you and please do not reference him in future posts.