Another reason why so many of us still love vinyl

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twich54

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Not trying to start a format war, but as most know alot of recent Redbook CD offerings have been fair at best, here's a little bit more insight if you will !

http://georgegraham.com/compress.html

IMO, it makes me want to ban anything to do with Sony, speaking of course with regards to the BMG affiliation.
 
With ANY format you will get good and bad releases.

The compression issues have been out there for years and people are just starting to recognize the bumping up issues.

Lately, I have picked up some very good sounding redbook releases. One should not take the compression issue as a overall blanket statement on how redbook will sound. It would be similar to saying, do not purchase vinyl due to the issues with surface noise along with wear and tear due to playing them.
 
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While I agree Dan, there is NO DENYING the fact that digital has regressed more in the past say....... 1-5 years than analog. Again, I'm speaking of a technology that is at a very mature level and to take any steps back (realtive dynamic rang compression) is poor.

I don't know who's to blame...the mp-3's, all the computer downloading, whatever, what I do know is the digital format is in a state of "flux", and over the next however many years untill the dust settles on the next generation of digital/high rez, whatever, I will continue to seek out the best medium for my musical enjoyment !

You know I support both formats, so again, no format war here, just passing on some info for all too digest.
 
While I agree Dan, there is NO DENYING the fact that digital has regressed more in the past say....... 1-5 years than analog.
Some digital has, some has not. A blanket statement for all digital is not true. I have some newer releases that just smoke releases of 5 years ago.

No format war for me either. Both formats offer excellent music with neither surpassing the other completely - they are just different. But vinyl has also regressed with their "audiophile release" marketing for titles, $50+ price tags, "last chance to purchase this" BS (and it appears again 6 months later), and on and on.

The true lovers of vinyl will not be sucked into such marketing BS hype.

Each person should find their format liking and get their system tweaked to show off that particular format - and sit back and enjoy it.
 
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I agree with DTB300. I find that the CD recordings are inconsistent and has bee that way for a long time. Most newly released CDs that are pretty good and a few are bad. The bad ones seem to be from be overly compressed sound engineering.

One the best sounding and recorded CDs I've heard yet is the new Jack Johnson - "Sleeping Through the Static".

Vinyl is an excellent format but takes some effort to use optimally. I.E. setup, care, cleaning, isolation, operation, additional equipment and cost, etc, however, I find that to be part of the fun of playing vinyl (except for the cost part). Regardless, I do plan to add a turntable rig to my system sometime in the future but I won't give up my CD/SACD player or Music Server (SB3).
 
But vinyl has also regressed with their "audiophile release" marketing for titles, $50+ price tags, "last chance to purchase this" BS (and it appears again 6 months later), and on and on.

The true lovers of vinyl will not be sucked into such marketing BS hype.

The cost of vinyl hasn't actually increased all that much since 1980. When adjusted for inflation, the current $50 album would have cost $18 in 1980 or about what a MoFi cost then. Sonically vinyl has never sounded better. The new 45rpm releases on Blue Note and the MoFi releases are a slice of audio heaven in general and can get one closer to the absolute than previous releases. Yes there is marketing BS ("Pure, Perfect Sound Forever" ring a bell) but it is marketing after all.

The $30 album is a relative bargain at $10.93 1980 dollars.

All vinyl or CD or SACD releases are not created equal, some are good and some suck, the Jack Johnson mentioned is one of the better CDs of late (vinyl on the way from Acoustic Sounds) and the Natalie Merchant "Tigerlilly" is an exceptional CD but it doesn't compare to the $39.99 45RPM version. The new Amy Winehouse, though musically compelling, is quite possibly the worst recording of the last decade regardless of format.

I listen and purchase music in every format save those that are tape-based and 78RPM, and I'd buy those but no 78rpm player.
 
I listen and purchase music in every format save those that are tape-based and 78RPM, and I'd buy those but no 78rpm player.
I think a picture of your system is long overdue....at least I don't remember seeing one. If I am wrong, please point me in the right direction.
 
I agree with DTB300. I find that the CD recordings are inconsistent and has bee that way for a long time. The bad ones seem to be from be overly compressed sound engineering.



That's exactly the point I was trying to make, ie. the attached article.

Maybe my initial post confussed all, I appoligize, let me try again..........

CD(digital music) has been around for twenty five plus years and has reached a suppoed "level of maturity". With that being said, to take this medium and not maximize it's Dynamic Range & S/N ability for ALL genres is absurd.

The fact that this is / has gotten the attenion is has should tell us something.

Bottom line is this________ The technology is present to do better then is presently being done, for all, not just some recordings, so lets all do our best NOT to support mediocrity !!
 
Yes there is marketing BS ("Pure, Perfect Sound Forever" ring a bell) but it is marketing after all.
I hate the BS and hyping..... but then again this is very much the norm in our hobby. Wonder how many people they suck into the vortex of absurdity with this stuff...

The $30 album is a relative bargain at $10.93 1980 dollars.
Ok...if you say so...

All vinyl or CD or SACD releases are not created equal....
I agree...all of the formats can sound amazing, and all can sound like crap, it depends solely on the people behind the scenes.
 
Bottom line is this________ The technology is present to do better then is presently being done, for all, not just some recordings, so lets all do our best NOT to support mediocrity !!
Agree.

Most of the issues you talk about here usually the highest selling titles - rock, pop, top 40, etc and these bad releases happen on a regular basis. Other genres like Jazz and Classical do not seem to be quite as affected by heavy handed compression.

Dan
 
Bottom line is this________ The technology is present to do better then is presently being done, for all, not just some recordings, so lets all do our best NOT to support mediocrity !!

So true - problem is, what happens if the music you want is poorly recorded? I'd rather own poorly recorded music that I like rather than well recorded music I don't like.
 
I'd rather own poorly recorded music that I like rather than well recorded music I don't like.

Own it......maybe, but enjoy it ?....NOT !

Better to be part of the solution than a supporter of the problem !!

Just "bustin' your stones" a little bit amey !!
 
Got to pipe in here - I don't understand this dynamic range thing.

First of all, we agree that vinyl has a dynamic range far far less than CD or other digital media. We still find vinyl enjoyable, so why so much dissing on dynamic range.

Secondly, too much dynamic range can be downright annoying - I have CDs where I constantly have to increase the volume to hear quiet parts, and constantly have to turn the volume when I get blasted by a loud part. This sort of dynamic range has no resembelance to a live performance. It just serves to make a recording unlistenable!
 
I dunno whether this is any help, but it's along the lines of some of the topics mentioned in the George Graham article - and it made the whole CD mastering process that bit clearer for me...

Why CD's sound worse than they used to

Incidentally, don't listen to too many test recordings. I put an old stereo test record the other day, with test tones up to 10kHz, and I couldn't hear anything above about 8k - whilst the other half is sitting there asking what the strange whistling noise is. Scary.
 
A little compression goes a long way. A little compression is good if your listening environment is not silent, as in a car. This will fight the problem of having to turn up the volume on the quieter parts. Also, note that modern records can have a pretty high dynamic range, much higher than stated in the article Dave provided. So can modern cartridges. I think Clearaudio makes one that exceeds 100db dynamic range. As a practical matter, I think that once you exceed a little over 70db dynamic range, most music can sound very good. On a related topic, I remember in the "good old days" that tape hiss was audible at less than 70db, but tended to be very well masked above that point. I used to use dbx noise reduction, which gave me about a 90db dynamic range capability.
 
So true - problem is, what happens if the music you want is poorly recorded? I'd rather own poorly recorded music that I like rather than well recorded music I don't like.

I feel the same way. Actually, if I don't enjoy the music, I don't care how well it is recorded and mastered. I'll "suffer" through a lesser recording to hear what a want. It's all about the music!
 
Got to pipe in here - I don't understand this dynamic range thing".

"First of all, we agree that vinyl has a dynamic range far far less than CD or other digital media. We still find vinyl enjoyable, so why so much dissing on dynamic range".

"We" don't agree. I don't know how much experience you have with vinyl, but I own many lp's that are just as dynamic if not more so than ANY CD. The so called superior dynamic range of digital hype is just that. By the way, the best sounding CD'S that I have heard were AAD as opposed to DDD. I find that very interesting. Could it be that the analog format has superior resolution?

Now I'M not anti digital. It has progressed greatly in the last 10 yrs, however analog has had 100 yrs to work out it's inherant weaknesses. There are still many issues that need to be addressed with digital.

Jerry
 
I don't know how much experience you have with vinyl, but I own many lp's that are just as dynamic if not more so than ANY CD. The so called superior dynamic range of digital hype is just that.

From Wikipedia:
The dynamic range is defined as the difference between the minimum and maximum amplitude a given device can record. For example, if the ceiling of a device is 10 dB and the noise floor is 3 dB then the dynamic range is 4.85 dB, since 10 dB−3 dB = 4.85 dB (recall that care must be taken when adding numbers in the decibel scale).

In digital audio systems the dynamic range is limited by quantization error. The maximum achievable dynamic range for a digital audio system is approximately (6 * bit-depth) dB. For CD audio, which is 16-bits, the corresponding dynamic range is 96.33 dB.

In the analog domain multiple noise processes determine the noise floor of a system and its corresponding dynamic range. Magnetic tape has a dynamic range of approximately 55dB. A vinyl disk has a dynamic range of approximately 65dB.

According to this wiki article (and many other sources), vinyl has a dynamic range of appx. 65 db while CDs have a dynamic range of appx. 96 db. That pretty much blows your argument out of the water. Are you so absolutely sure that your vinyl has the same dynamic range as your cds? Have you considered that your vinyl sounds better to you than cds for reasons other than dynamic range? You may be confusing resolution and a host of other issues with dynamic range. Please get your facts straight before blowing something off as "hype."

If you want to learn more about the problems with dynamic range limiting and the "Loudness War" here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

http://www.turnmeup.org/

The turnmeup site has dozens of links to information on this topic for those that are truly interested in learning more.

For those of you needing a visual representation to understand the effects of dynamic range compression, this is an excellent article:

http://www.mindspring.com/~mrichter/dynamics/dynamics.htm
 
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