Please grade my proposed system

After extensive research, and after some terrific advice I received on this excellent forum, I have finally put all the pieces together. Before I place the various orders, I hope you would be willing to offer your critique.

Assumptions:

1. My budget is $9200 (for everything excluding power cords, ICs).
2. I listen mostly to lighter material (accoustic, vocals, and the like)
3. I already own an Accustic Arts CDP
4. I want to start with a 2 channel system, but have the capability of moving toward HT one day.
5. I want to avoid buying used gear.

Proposed purchases:

1. Speakers: MartinLogan Vantages

2. Amp: Dussun V8i (it's an integrated, but I'll just be using the amp section). For a description, look at the first amp listed on this website:
http://www.highendpalace.com/HEP Integrated Amps.htm

Most (though not all) of what has been written about the Dussun has been positive, and, given that I don't wish to buy used gear, it is a pretty good value ($1600, 250Watts@8ohms, 500Watts@ohms).

3. Pre-amp: Cary SLP-98 (http://www.caryaudio.com/products/classic.html. I thought this would add a bit of tube warmth, and the price I've been quoted seems fair, $2600 shipped.

Total spent: $9200

Any advice? Observations?

Thanks in advance!

:devil:

bahamaman said:

After extensive research, and after some terrific advice I received on this excellent forum, I have finally put all the pieces together. Before I place the various orders, I hope you would be willing to offer your critique
.....

Any advice? Observations?

Click to expand...

Hello Bahamaman... is seems you windowshopped quite extensively. Unlike many of us, you're in a very good position: you only have a CDP, and you have time and a budget. Don't fret, because the pleasure is also in the travel, not only in reaching the destination. Test gear, find dealers and manufacturers that offer you 30 days try-it-out policies, and let your ears be the judge. Begin by getting the Vantages and attaching some quality cabling to them. Then host amplifiers at your place, from class A to D, and write down your impressions - you're in the position of affording this and I don't see why you should deprive yourself of the ride's pleasure. As long as the checkbook and the pen are both in your hands, you're the king - be it.

And forget about the Dussun, as you should do about any gear whose description contains 1 to n iterations of the word "ultra" :devil:

bahamaman said:

Assumptions:

1. My budget is $9200 (for everything excluding power cords, ICs).
2. I listen mostly to lighter material (accoustic, vocals, and the like)
3. I already own an Accustic Arts CDP
4. I want to start with a 2 channel system, but have the capability of moving toward HT one day.
5. I want to avoid buying used gear.

Proposed purchases:

1. Speakers: MartinLogan Vantages

2. Amp: Dussun V8i (it's an integrated, but I'll just be using the amp section). For a description, look at the first amp listed on this website:
http://www.highendpalace.com/HEP Integrated Amps.htm

Most (though not all) of what has been written about the Dussun has been positive, and, given that I don't wish to buy used gear, it is a pretty good value ($1600, 250Watts@8ohms, 500Watts@ohms).

3. Pre-amp: Cary SLP-98 (http://www.caryaudio.com/products/classic.html. I thought this would add a bit of tube warmth, and the price I've been quoted seems fair, $2600 shipped.

Click to expand...

Assumptions:

Why avoid buying used gear? Personal preference? A bunch of us here have some excellent equipment and it is used. Just curious as to why you would be avoiding used.

Proposed Purchases:

1. Starting off on the right foot!!!!

2. Know nothing about it. From the web site: "Hyper-Class A" - what the heck is that??? Sounds like marketing jumbo.....even reading further down for the explaination. If the amp can "truely" obtain Class A sound performance without the heat and power drain would truely be a great achievement. Most amps that have a technology which says it has the Class A sound without the Class A drawbacks "usually" just does not live up to it in my experiences. I would have to hear the amp to believe the marketing info.

3. A lot of Cary users here who absolutely love their gear. From the Cary Pre's I have heard, you cannot go wrong.

Try to audition as many pieces as you can in your own home - if possible.

Dan

bahamaman said:

After extensive research, and after some terrific advice I received on this excellent forum, I have finally put all the pieces together. Before I place the various orders, I hope you would be willing to offer your critique.

Assumptions:

1. My budget is $9200 (for everything excluding power cords, ICs).
2. I listen mostly to lighter material (accoustic, vocals, and the like)
3. I already own an Accustic Arts CDP
4. I want to start with a 2 channel system, but have the capability of moving toward HT one day.
5. I want to avoid buying used gear.

Proposed purchases:

1. Speakers: MartinLogan Vantages

2. Amp: Dussun V8i (it's an integrated, but I'll just be using the amp section). For a description, look at the first amp listed on this website:
http://www.highendpalace.com/HEP Integrated Amps.htm

Most (though not all) of what has been written about the Dussun has been positive, and, given that I don't wish to buy used gear, it is a pretty good value ($1600, 250Watts@8ohms, 500Watts@ohms).

3. Pre-amp: Cary SLP-98 (http://www.caryaudio.com/products/classic.html. I thought this would add a bit of tube warmth, and the price I've been quoted seems fair, $2600 shipped.

Total spent: $9200

Any advice? Observations?

Thanks in advance!

Click to expand...

Hola...I think that you did your homework with an A. Every sound system is just a matter of taste and liking...I don´t see any reason why not you will have an oustanding sound from these system gear...I wish you a very happy listening,
Roberto.

DTB300 said:

Why avoid buying used gear? Personal preference? A bunch of us here have some excellent equipment and it is used. Just curious as to why you would be avoiding used.

Click to expand...

It's not really that I won't buy used, but here's what I was thinking. On audiogon, an eight year old Classe rated at 200W will cost about the same as the Dussun, which has more power and a free 30 day home trial. So, why not get something new and, if I don't like it, just return it.

bahamaman said:

It's not really that I won't buy used, but here's what I was thinking. On audiogon, an eight year old Classe rated at 200W will cost about the same as the Dussun, which has more power and a free 30 day home trial. So, why not get something new and, if I don't like it, just return it.

Click to expand...

Good call...I think Outlaw might have something like that as well, so you might think about them. I have read some good reviews of their gear.

If you are not averse to used gear why not hold out for some Summit speakers? That would probably crush the budget even used though!

Pcar928fan said:

If you are not averse to used gear why not hold out for some Summit speakers? That would probably crush the budget even used though!

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Don't think it hasn't crosssed my mind! A pair just went for $7500 on the 'gon (that was at least the asking price). So, wait for the Summits and have $1700 to spend on an amp and preamp? I don't think I could find top quality separates, even used, for that price.

Also please read Ralflar's post here - CIAudio is something worth considering:

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=3648

Like Dan, I'm somewhat skeptical about this "Hyper' Clas A claim ??, besides I for one would not trust a true class A amp with internal heat sinks, and whimpy ones at that !! Now with that being said a thirty day home test ride could prove interesting !! If you do go that route by all means keep us posted.

lugano said:

Also please read Ralflar's post here - CIAudio is something worth considering:

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=3648

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I was seriously considering going with a Class D amp (Channel Islands, Spectron, PS Audio, Edge, NuForce, etc.), and had actually made an offer on one that was recently on Audiogon. After I told him I was going to use it to power my MLs, the seller actually wrote me back and strongly suggested I *not* buy his amp! He was a longtime ML owner and he suggested going more with Krell/Classe/Pass Labs, etc.

For those of you who own Class D amps, I'm not trying start a flame war, but you can imagine the impression it creates when a seller tells you you shouldn't buy his gear!

If you go used, you can generally buy, and then if you don't like it, resell for 95% of what you bought it for (sometimes for more than 100% of what you bought it for if you are patient and wait for a great deal) If you buy new, when you do decide to sell, you lose 40-60% of what you paid for it, even if it still has 90% of its life left. Buying used is a no-brainer for me.

You don't need a lot of wattage to drive summits or vantages. you could get a well built 30-50W tube or class A amp (six pacs / Pass Aleph) and it would sound better (unless you're really trying to crank it up) than a cheaper $/watt amp. Remember, twice the wattage only equals +3db in sound, so a 400w amp will only play 6db louder than a 100w amp before running out of power. If you play at loud levels, you may need that headroom...but for the type of music you say you like...a lower watt, more musical amp is probably a better bet.

You can get Six pacs or primaluna tube amps used for around the price of that dassun, and an aleph 30w SS Class A for considerably less.

Cary looks good. Could be gotten for much cheaper used.

Keep an eye out for summits, you should be able to get them for less than $7500....that said, I think vantages are the much better value, so it wouldn't hurt to go with them at half the price (used or new)

Squeeze a DAC into the setup (I second the CIaudio recommendation, they seem to make some nice DACs at pretty reasonable prices) and you're well set up.

Also, all class D amps are not created equal...I believe some of them work very well with MLs.

IWalker said:

You don't need a lot of wattage to drive summits or vantages. you could get a well built 30-50W tube or class A amp (six pacs / Pass Aleph) and it would sound better (unless you're really trying to crank it up) than a cheaper $/watt amp.

Click to expand...

You're the second person who has mentioned this to me. I became so confused about the issue that I emailed ML and their representative said that they recommend, minimally, 150 Watts@8ohm and minimally 250 Watts@4ohms with the Vantages.

I would really appreciate any help sorting this issue out because I really like the idea of geting a lower wattage tube or Aleph amp.

I am currently using a 30w class A amp on the Quests (which are less efficient than the vantages and summits) and it sounds much better than the 370W/channel pro amp I WAS using to power it.

It really depends on listening preferences, but I don't listen to much music louder than 85db or so, which means that, considering the distance from the speakers, and the line source nature of the panels (and the efficiency of the speakers), I likely use less than 1 watt of the available power during most of my listening. At peaks, I probably use 10db or so more than that...which is around 8 watts.

If you listen louder than that, you will quickly run out of steam with a more powerful amp. It takes 8 times the power to double the loudness of a system, so don't go thinking that a 400w amp will make your speakers twice as loud as a 200w amp. There's a fairly minor difference in volume between the two.

If you are right in the middle range, where you're just barely running out of power, then getting something more powerful might be helpful to you. For me, 30W is more than enough...and I don't ever even use that.

Other members here use Six Pacs, which are 50W monbloc tube amps...with great success. As long as an amp has a solid power supply that will allow it to handle the impedence dips at high frequencies, then the wattage is really secondary IMO. Quality over quantity.

bahamaman said:

I was seriously considering going with a Class D amp (Channel Islands, Spectron, PS Audio, Edge, NuForce, etc.)
For those of you who own Class D amps, I'm not trying start a flame war, but you can imagine the impression it creates when a seller tells you you shouldn't buy his gear!

Click to expand...

In a former life, I was a class A advocate. In a former life, before having Martin Logans, I had $10k worth of Naim gear and a cult for british sound or whatever label you care sticking on that 3k to 7kHz blooming sound. Overpriced hand-made errors, if you want my opinion. It is a tragedy that s**t like 3/5A's who follow ante litteram the mp3 psichoacoustics are still selling in excess of $1000 on eBay. Build your own, be it a HiFi rack or an opinion. And once built, believe in it - you are what you think.

All looks very good with the exception of the amp. I know nothing about it, and have never heard it, but I don't see the point of going with an integrated amp if you are going to have for yourself a great preamp. Have a look at some of the power amps from Rotel or Classé.

bahamaman said:

I became so confused about the issue that I emailed ML and their representative said that they recommend, minimally, 150 Watts@8ohm and minimally 250 Watts@4ohms with the Vantages.

I would really appreciate any help sorting this issue out because I really like the idea of geting a lower wattage tube or Aleph amp.

Click to expand...

There are plenty of us (myself included) on this site running Vantage's (to very satisfactory levels) with less than stated above, as a 'general' rule it's not the quanity but the quality that matters. Logans require stable amplifiers throught the entire audible bandwidth, ie. a more 'reactive' load is presented to the amplifier.

bahamaman said:

Proposed purchases:

1. Speakers: MartinLogan Vantages

2. Amp: Dussun V8i (it's an integrated, but I'll just be using the amp section). For a description, look at the first amp listed on this website:
http://www.highendpalace.com/HEP Integrated Amps.htm


3. Pre-amp: Cary SLP-98 (http://www.caryaudio.com/products/classic.html. I thought this would add a bit of tube warmth, and the price I've been quoted seems fair, $2600 shipped.

Total spent: $9200

Any advice? Observations?

Thanks in advance!

Click to expand...

1. Cary 98 with Sylvania NOS tubes is mucho awesome.
2. Vantages are mucho awesome.
3. As for the amp, get a pair of Cary tube monos or the AES 6pac.

bahamaman said:

You're the second person who has mentioned this to me. I became so confused about the issue that I emailed ML and their representative said that they recommend, minimally, 150 Watts@8ohm and minimally 250 Watts@4ohms with the Vantages.

I would really appreciate any help sorting this issue out because I really like the idea of geting a lower wattage tube or Aleph amp.

Click to expand...

I think the ML reps made the above statement to (over) simplify things for the Joe Sixpac customers. If you were to take the time and dive into some research, you'll find things are quite different and your choices do open up quite a bit... Here's the link to my post on the Impedance load of ML presented to speakers. If you have concerns about a medium/low power amplifier driving the ML, here's the link to my post on the DB/loudness measurements. WARNING: there are some "heated discussions" I participated in the 2nd link but there are lots of information there. Hope these links help...

Spike

What an amp! I think most people will shy away from it just because it is unfamiliar, but to be honest-I like the construction. Massive torroids with plenty of capacitence...or so it seems.

And the biggest stat I saw---90A PER CHANNEL. Are you kidding me? That is the highest I have EVER SEEN.

The only obvious issue is of course...is it true? I would like to see more on the hyper class a thing--but everyone has marketing schemes!

I hope you buy and evaluate! I might have to get one at that price!

Dominick

Spike said:

I think the ML reps made the above statement to (over) simplify things for the Joe Sixpac customers. If you were to take the time and dive into some research, you'll find things are quite different and your choices do open up quite a bit... Here's the link to my post on the Impedance load of ML presented to speakers. If you have concerns about a medium/low power amplifier driving the ML, here's the link to my post on the DB/loudness measurements. WARNING: there are some "heated discussions" I participated in the 2nd link but there are lots of information there. Hope these links help...

Spike

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Thanks, Spike - I did check out those threads and I'm beginning to understand more fully the arguments against the chase for more and more power. At the same time, I also can appreciate the argument that the extra wattage is necessary to create headroom.

It sounds like one of those issues that lacks a clear "right" answer. Accordingly, I'll just have to make a decision and hope that I've purchased something with a decent resale value in case it isn't the correct one. And that clearly weighs in favor of getting it used.

Thanks to all, and any additional comments would be most welcomed.