I'm Vexed..., I'm Incredibly Vexed... [Archive]

Robin

09-08-2006, 01:33 PM

kirkawall

09-08-2006, 01:41 PM

I need your help.

I am desperately seeking your counsel and advise regarding high-end source CD/SACD players. I have been searching / researching CD/SACD players, in vain seemingly, tubed or SS, anything which have powerful analog and DAC's as well as the ability to drive amp's directly... The only source player which meets my requirements and capabilities (below) is the McIntosh MC 201 CD/SACD player... But I really want to look at several players. I would like to have options..., to audition other players. Unfortunately, I have not been able to ascertain if a prospective player has the capability - #2 below. The other areas are more easily discernible / available...

These are the qualities I want / require:

#1. Delivers Great Sound for Music. Strong Analog and DAC.
#2. Have volume level adjustment. The ability to control two amplifiers
(like the MC 201) source to amp direct without pre-amp (no pre-amp),
preferably with balanced cabling ability.
#3. CD/SACD capable.
#4. Cost $3500 - $4000 (USD).

If anyone could recommend player(s), which has all of the above qualities (especially #2) that would be wonderful. :o

Thanks in advance for you consideration and assistance. :)

Hi Robin,

I'm listening to the MCD-201 as I type this, via Mac and Quad amps and via my ML Vantages. Another poster here has described this machine in less than flattering terms but I can't agreee. I'm getting a wonderfully detailed sound with precise soundstaging, balanced tonality and a terrific natural sound I've not had before in this system. The volume control has 214 steps, and the output stage can swing real current. I can't think of other machines that have this direct-to-amp facility and also are SACD but no doubt there are a few. I would say, on this showing, do NOT discount the MCD201!

best,

k

dyazdani

09-08-2006, 01:44 PM

I used to run a CDp direct to amp, but I'm not aware of too many (other than the Mac) with SACD capabilities. I'll have to research this one...

Robin

09-08-2006, 01:52 PM

Hi Robin,

I'm listening to the MCD-201 as I type this, via Mac and Quad amps and via my ML Vantages. Another poster here has described this machine in less than flattering terms but I can't agree. I'm getting a wonderfully detailed sound with precise soundstaging, balanced tonality and a terrific natural sound I've not had before in this system. The volume control has 214 steps, and the output stage can swing real current. I can't think of other machines that have this direct-to-amp facility and also are SACD but no doubt there are a few. I would say, on this showing, do NOT discount the MCD201!

best,

k
kirkawall,

I understand and respect what you are saying. :) As you know I have auditioned the McIntosh MC201 and I thought it wonderful as well and I promise will not discount it. ;) It is definitely number one, mostly because it is the only one I know..., sad to say. I wish I had more audio knowledge, so that I didn't have to ask for help at this time but unfortunately I'm at a brick wall. I just can not seem to find another brand comparable to the MC 201, in all the areas above, which is my quandary and has me so very vexed... :o

MiTT

09-08-2006, 02:47 PM

I need your help.

I am desperately seeking your counsel and advise regarding high-end source CD/SACD players. I have been searching / researching CD/SACD players, in vain seemingly, tubed or SS, anything which have powerful analog and DAC's as well as the ability to drive amp's directly... The only source player which meets my requirements and capabilities (below) is the McIntosh MC 201 CD/SACD player... But I really want to look at several players. I would like to have options..., to audition other players. Unfortunately, I have not been able to ascertain if a prospective player has the capability - #2 below. The other areas are more easily discernible / available...

These are the qualities I want / require:

#1. Delivers Great Sound for Music. Strong Analog and DAC.
#2. Have volume level adjustment. The ability to control / drive two
amplifiers (like the MC 201) source to amp direct without pre-amp (no
pre-amp), preferably with balanced cabling ability.
#3. CD/SACD capable.
#4. Cost $3500 - $4000 (USD).

If anyone could recommend player(s), which has all of the above qualities (especially #2) that would be wonderful. :o

Thanks in advance for you consideration and assistance. :)
Robin, curious why Requirement #2 is of such importance to you as I know you plan to use a pretty high end processor for control of other sources and even plan to add vinyl at some point in time.

DrJRapp

09-08-2006, 04:08 PM

Robin

09-08-2006, 04:11 PM

Robin, curious why Requirement #2 is of such importance to you as I know you plan to use a pretty high end processor for control of other sources and even plan to add vinyl at some point in time.
Tim,

I'm looking to build an audio system only. This would be gradually built in easy stages. This proposed future music system of mine would be separate from my HT system.

I plan on beginning with two mono block tube amplifiers driven directly by a powerful source CD/SACD player only. This basic audio equipment would be the basic gear powering Summits or some future, next speaker-up from the current Summits, that is if ML actually produces a bigger ESL speaker...

Then later to complete the system, add-in a TT with phono tubed pre-amp (for phono only, not for CD/ASCD - as this would remain separate and direct). As I envision my music system would be a strictly music listening in a dedicated music listening room exclusively.

Robin

09-08-2006, 04:15 PM

Robin

You may want to take a look at a Shanling CDT200 SACD. I have a CDT100 CD only player and it has volume control. The 200 is the SACD version so I think it may have the same feature.

The Shanling sounds great with my Summits and two NuForce Ref9 monos.

Jerry Rappaport
Jerry,

OK, I shall look more closely at the Shanling SACD T200 fantastic player.

Thanks for that suggestion / recommendation... ;)

Rik_Rankin

09-08-2006, 04:28 PM

kirkawall,

I understand and respect what you are saying. :) As you know I have auditioned the McIntosh MC201 and I thought it wonderful as well and I promise will not discount it. ;) It is definitely number one, mostly because it is the only one I know..., sad to say. I wish I had more audio knowledge, so that I didn't have to ask for help at this time but unfortunately I'm at a brick wall. I just can not seem to find another brand comparable to the MC 201, in all the areas above, which is my quandary and has me so very vexed... :o
Make sure you get a careful long home audition. Unless there was something seriously wrong with the demo unit, I thought it sounded grainy and flat as well as uninvolving in an all Mac system!!!!! i TOOK THE COVER OFF and the transport was a cheap plastic piece of junk. Mac is changing to a new transport shortly according to Chuck in service. Don't necessarily assume your cd player is going to sound better plugged straight into the amp. Sometimes it does and sometimes a good tube pre-amp actually adds some nice warmth and fattens the soundstage. Mark Levinson 390s has a volume control. I think the later Sony Sacd player did too, but I'm not sure. If you don't already have sacds, I'm not sure why you would want to start; most don't sound so great.

Robin

09-08-2006, 04:40 PM

Make sure you get a careful long home audition. Unless there was something seriously wrong with the demo unit, I thought it sounded grainy and flat as well as uninvolving in an all Mac system!!!!! i TOOK THE COVER OFF and the transport was a cheap plastic piece of junk. Mac is changing to a new transport shortly according to Chuck in service. Don't necessarily assume your cd player is going to sound better plugged straight into the amp. Sometimes it does and sometimes a good tube pre-amp actually adds some nice warmth and fattens the soundstage. Mark Levinson 390s has a volume control. I think the later Sony Sacd player did too, but I'm not sure. If you don't already have sacds, I'm not sure why you would want to start; most don't sound so great.
Rik,

I wonder if McIntosh will just change the transport device in the current MC 201 model or come out with an all new model? :confused:

I shall check out Mark Levinson's 390's as well... I would like a player that plays both CD's as well as SACD's. Thanks for the recommendation... I really appreciate it. :)

Rik_Rankin

09-08-2006, 05:35 PM

Rik,

I wonder if McIntosh will just change the transport device in the current MC 201 model or come out with an all new model? :confused:

I shall check out Mark Levinson's 390's as well... I would like a player that plays both CD's as well as SACD's. Thanks for the recommendation... I really appreciate it. :)
it's going to be the same model with a different transport in the last quarter of 06. The levinson unit is much more expensive. Do you have SACD's now?

kwr

09-08-2006, 06:29 PM

These are the qualities I want / require:

#1. Delivers Great Sound for Music. Strong Analog and DAC.
#2. Have volume level adjustment. The ability to control / drive two
amplifiers (like the MC 201) source to amp direct without pre-amp (no
pre-amp), preferably with balanced cabling ability.
#3. CD/SACD capable.
#4. Cost $3500 - $4000 (USD).

If anyone could recommend player(s), which has all of the above qualities (especially #2) that would be wonderful. :o

http://www.audioaero.com/

Audio Aero Prestige SACD/CD player meets three of your requirements. I do not know the cost in the US. The website has been updated to a flash site and is less user friendly but worth a look

Do you really want SACD? The Phillips SACD/CD mechanism has received a bit of flak for being unreliable. Also (personal opinion) unless you are right into classical music SACD is a gamble. Have you heard a player such as the Audio Aero Reference CDP? Pretty good and you may decide SACD not worth it.

Kevin

kirkawall

09-08-2006, 06:33 PM

it's going to be the same model with a different transport in the last quarter of 06. The levinson unit is much more expensive. Do you have SACD's now?

Rik:

This is interesting -- there's no doubt that there have been problems with this current transport (six firmware upgrades!) and I for one have been cautious about going ahead with it. That said, I have been blown away by the sound and I've had some top disc-spinners (Naim, Cary, MF, Ayre) to compare to.

Robin:

There are rumbles about a new MF SACD player in the A series and the new Nad may have a basic volume control. You might also consider a basic pre from the likes of Channel Island to use "in the meantime."

best,

k

Robin

09-08-2006, 06:36 PM

it's going to be the same model with a different transport in the last quarter of 06. The levinson unit is much more expensive. Do you have SACD's now?
Rik,

Unfortunately not at this time. Been waiting saving-up funds to hopefully purchase this dream player I want (listed above). I have SACD's though but I can't play them. I just look at them and wonder. Sometimes I bring them with me to audition SACD players in audio stores... Kinda sad huh? :(
Oh well maybe someday soon. And now I have the Shanling T200 and the Levinson 390's to Audition and research. Thanks to kirkawall and yourself... ;)

I'm hoping for the spring of 2007 to come to a decision and purchase. :)

Robin

09-08-2006, 06:52 PM

http://www.audioaero.com/

Audio Aero Prestige SACD/CD player meets three of your requirements. I do not know the cost in the US. The website has been updated to a flash site and is less user friendly but worth a look

Do you really want SACD? The Phillips SACD/CD mechanism has received a bit of flak for being unreliable. Also (personal opinion) unless you are right into classical music SACD is a gamble. Have you heard a player such as the Audio Aero Reference CDP? Pretty good and you may decide SACD not worth it.

Kevin
Kevin,

Thanks for the third CD/SACD to check out. Excellent recommendation! Thanks for your help... :D I do have my heart set on a CD/SACD player. ;)

dyazdani

09-08-2006, 08:48 PM

And now I have the Shanling T200 and the Levinson 390's to Audition and research. Thanks to kirkawall and yourself... ;)

I owned the previous Levinson model (No 39), it did great going direct to amp - I tried it both ways. I didn't think that the 390 did SACD though...I can't afford it anyway, so I never looked too close.

patlad

09-08-2006, 09:29 PM

You may want to look at the new Wadia 581. It will be out of your budget probably but can serve as a reference.

DrJRapp

09-09-2006, 04:15 AM

Another approach you may want to explore if you are going to limit yourself to a 2 channel SACD system is to use a Benchmark DAC1 with any decent universal DVD player you may already have. The DAC1 has a volume control, balanced outputs and has special circuitry for jitter reduction. It also has the benifit of only costing $975. Sounds phenominal.

attyonline

09-09-2006, 07:17 AM

Glad to see you back, Jerry. Where have you been? Still got the Summits? :)

DrJRapp

09-09-2006, 08:10 AM

Glad to see you back, Jerry. Where have you been? Still got the Summits? :)

I never left....only been a member here for a couple of weeks.

Yup I'll have the Summits til ML dreams up something better.

Rik_Rankin

09-09-2006, 12:04 PM

Still going strong. This pic was taken before I moved.

attyonline

09-09-2006, 03:23 PM

You're right Jerry. I also frequent the Rotel Club which is where I have not seen you for a while. Sorry for the mixup. :o

Robin

09-10-2006, 12:15 PM

Well, as you guy's can tell on the other 'Source' thread, I've found several contenders, thanks to all of you helping me out, which I very much appreciate BTW as always... :)

I'll share with you some of my findings so far. The prices next to the CD/SACD player (below) are the audiogon price. The players, which tend to meet my above requirements, brake down into two categories basically like this:

Tubed CD/SACD Players:
Audio Aero Prestige..$9,000 (USD)
Shanling T200........ $2,000

SS CD/SACD Players:
Mark Levinson 390S..$4,000
Wadia 581i..............$4,400
McIntosh MCD 201...$2,500

Still researching though. ;) I just wish CD / SACD player manufactures, in their written information, would make it easier to know whether or not a player has volume control or could drive amplifiers. It's not a lot to ask really. :rolleyes:

Spike

09-10-2006, 06:08 PM

Still researching though. ;) I just wish CD / SACD player manufactures, in their written information, would make it easier to know whether or not a player has volume control or could drive amplifiers. It's not a lot to ask really. :rolleyes:

Robin,
You should give Dan Wright of ModWright (http://www.modwright.com) a call regarding either the Denon or Sony with Signature mods. His signature mod is a derrivation of the SWL linestage so it's akin to having a simplified preamp stuffed inside the player. Given that this is the case, it should not be too hard to add an attenuation for volume control. Talk to Dan to see how he can accomodate for your need.

Spike

Moo

09-10-2006, 06:52 PM

Have alook at what NuForce make of it:
http://www.nuforce.com/products-intamps.htm

DrJRapp

09-11-2006, 04:42 AM

Have alook at what NuForce make of it:
http://www.nuforce.com/products-intamps.htm

I've heard that combo...mediocre at very best. Oppo is OK for 480i video over HDMI, but it's too full of jitter for much else.

DTB300

09-11-2006, 05:17 AM

You should give Dan Wright of ModWright (http://www.modwright.com) a call regarding either the Denon or Sony with Signature mods. His signature mod is a derrivation of the SWL linestage so it's akin to having a simplified preamp stuffed inside the player. Given that this is the case, it should not be too hard to add an attenuation for volume control. Talk to Dan to see how he can accomodate for your need.
I totally agree with Spike in regards to Dan Wright. Great customer service along with a great product. Give him a call and tell him your needs and he will be upfront and honest with you on "if" something can be done, and how much it will cost. Turnaround time is also excellent. I highly recommend Dan Wright for his mods and products.

Dan

jjqiv

09-11-2006, 09:16 AM

I totally agree with Spike in regards to Dan Wright. Great customer service along with a great product. Give him a call and tell him your needs and he will be upfront and honest with you on "if" something can be done, and how much it will cost. Turnaround time is also excellent. I highly recommend Dan Wright for his mods and products.

Dan

With a good source and tube mono's, you can you a Placette Passive Pre for great attenuation.

Plus, you get switching and remote control.

http://www.10audio.com/placette.htm

MiTT

09-11-2006, 11:05 AM

Tim,

I'm looking to build an audio system only. This would be gradually built in easy stages. This proposed future music system of mine would be separate from my HT system.

I plan on beginning with two mono block tube amplifiers driven directly by a powerful source CD/SACD player only. This basic audio equipment would be the basic gear powering Summits or some future, next speaker-up from the current Summits, that is if ML actually produces a bigger ESL speaker...

Then later to complete the system, add-in a TT with phono tubed pre-amp (for phono only, not for CD/ASCD - as this would remain separate and direct). As I envision my music system would be a strictly music listening in a dedicated music listening room exclusively.

I see...

So then your plan will be to get a tubed pre-amp so you have volume control for phono (or hey; just get the Asthetics Io Signature with a volume control - only about $12,000.00) and then you will plug and unplug cables at the amplifier when you want to switch sources? :confused:

Is your concern that a pre-amp that can function as both a volume control and source switch will color the sound too much? Not trying to play devils advocate as much as I'm curious. There are any number of very good pre-amps out there that would negate the need for a volume control at your silver disc source.

Robin

09-11-2006, 04:36 PM

Robin,
You should give Dan Wright of ModWright (http://www.modwright.com) a call regarding either the Denon or Sony with Signature mods. His signature mod is a derrivation of the SWL linestage so it's akin to having a simplified preamp stuffed inside the player. Given that this is the case, it should not be too hard to add an attenuation for volume control. Talk to Dan to see how he can accomodate for your need.

Spike
Spike,

Great suggestion. I will definiately consider Dave and his Modwright service. I think he could save me a bundle in the long run... ;)

Thanks

Robin

09-11-2006, 05:04 PM

I see...

So then your plan will be to get a tubed pre-amp so you have volume control for phono (or hey; just get the Asthetics Io Signature with a volume control - only about $12,000.00) and then you will plug and unplug cables at the amplifier when you want to switch sources?

Is your concern that a pre-amp that can function as both a volume control and source switch will color the sound too much? Not trying to play devils advocate as much as I'm curious. There are any number of very good pre-amps out there that would negate the need for a volume control at your silver disc source.
Yes, I plan on having a switching device. Kinda like a "Y" cord connection, with the mono block amps at the end with the CD/SACD and phono amp/TT as choices to switch to.

Yes, the sound I've auditioned using the source driving the amplifiers directly was totally un-colored and just beautiful. That's what I want for my CD/SACD source... :)

I realize when I add phono later, I'll need a phono amp. Yes it will be tubed as well but switched into the path when listening to phono and switched out for CD/SACD listening. If I could get Dave Wright to make a TT with volume control, I'd use that directly to control the amplifiers. :) Please understand, I really do not want to use a phono pre-amp. because it is just too much color, too much in the path adding things of the music. I'm looking for pure direct as possible source to amp. to speakers for a truly wonderful musical sound. I've auditioned CD/SACD sources this way, but I don't expect to ever see a TT with volume control though I've never looked... Do they even make a TT with volume control? Probably not... Oh well. :rolleyes: I hope this gives you a better idea of what I'm looking for in my system. :) Any thoughts?

twich54

09-12-2006, 07:21 AM

Robin, I too am in a serious "contemplation" stage right now as where I want my digital end of my sysytem to be headed, and while i am pondering the "universal" player approach this past weekend I happened upon a CD / SACD player that really caught my attention......... Cary's CD303/300. Heard it at a freind of a freinds house driven through CJ gear into a pair of B&W 803D's. What I heard I really liked, that being said I too am seriously considering the Modwright route on a sony or Denon player after my recent talk with Dan Wright. Too many damn options to consider !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spike

09-12-2006, 02:08 PM

Yes, I plan on having a switching device. Kinda like a "Y" cord connection, with the mono block amps at the end with the CD/SACD and phono amp/TT as choices to switch to.

Yes, the sound I've auditioned using the source driving the amplifiers directly was totally un-colored and just beautiful. That's what I want for my CD/SACD source... :)

I realize when I add phono later, I'll need a phono amp. Yes it will be tubed as well but switched into the path when listening to phono and switched out for CD/SACD listening. If I could get Dave Wright to make a TT with volume control, I'd use that directly to control the amplifiers. :) Please understand, I really do not want to use a phono pre-amp. because it is just too much color, too much in the path adding things of the music. I'm looking for pure direct as possible source to amp. to speakers for a truly wonderful musical sound. I've auditioned CD/SACD sources this way, but I don't expect to ever see a TT with volume control though I've never looked... Do they even make a TT with volume control? Probably not... Oh well. :rolleyes: I hope this gives you a better idea of what I'm looking for in my system. :) Any thoughts?

Robin,
Adding TT into the mix in the future just changed the equation quite a bit. In this case, you'll need a good full-fledged pre-amp with phono capabilities. The Cary SLP-98, ModWright SWLP-9.0SE (Note the SWLP designation for phono), SupraTek, Aesthetix full-function pre-amps readily come to mind. I'm sure there are a host of others that I have not mentioned. The rationale for having a centralized full-fledged preamp is that you'll need a good high-quality box serving as source selector and volume control for both digital and phone sources. Having an Y-connector in the middle of the signal chain is NOT the answer. The quality of the Y-connector is questionable, plus that you'll need to duplicate the analogue output stage: 1 for the digital source (built-in via ModWright mods on the SACD player) and 1 to accomodate for the phono source. I just feel that it's much better to go with a well-designed centralized preamp to handle source switching, pre-amplification for the phone stage, and analogue buffering (volume control) to drive the amplifiers. Check with Dennis Had of Cary Audio and/or Dan Wright of ModWright to see which solution best fit your needs. Assuming that you're gonna have a full-fledged pre-amp, I would skim down on the mods to the source unit to save $$$ and possibly go with the new APL Sony where the bulk of the mods reside in the digital circuitry and power supplies rather than analogue stage which will be redundant when using a pre-amp. Just my 2-cents...

Spike

Robin

09-12-2006, 03:20 PM

Spike,

:) I see what your saying and you make excellent intelligent points regarding the pre-amp but I am not convinced that a "Y" switch would be detrimental to the signal. I would need strong evidence that the "Y" is proven to down grade the signal because...? However, this is a good question for Dan Wright or Dennis Had along with some others I have i. e.,

1). Would a simple "Y" type of switch be detrimental to the signal? If so exactly how? or why?
2). Would it be possible to have a simple two channel (Phono / CD) tube pre-amp like Cary or Conrad Johnson etc., which would not color or flavor the signal at all?
3). Is it possible or advisible to Modwright - add volume control to a TT for direct control of two amps without a pre-amp?

Communicate directly with Dan Wright or Dennis Had about this is a great idea. :) I will concider asking the above questions prior to adding a TT.

Thank you again Spike for your advise, ideas and recommendations. I really appreciate it. :)

:) Any more thoughts?

MiTT

09-12-2006, 03:25 PM

Robin,
Adding TT into the mix in the future just changed the equation quite a bit. In this case, you'll need a good full-fledged pre-amp with phono capabilities. The Cary SLP-98, ModWright SWLP-9.0SE (Note the SWLP designation for phono), SupraTek, Aesthetix full-function pre-amps readily come to mind. I'm sure there are a host of others that I have not mentioned. The rationale for having a centralized full-fledged preamp is that you'll need a good high-quality box serving as source selector and volume control for both digital and phone sources. Having an Y-connector in the middle of the signal chain is NOT the answer. The quality of the Y-connector is questionable, plus that you'll need to duplicate the analogue output stage: 1 for the digital source (built-in via ModWright mods on the SACD player) and 1 to accomodate for the phono source. I just feel that it's much better to go with a well-designed centralized preamp to handle source switching, pre-amplification for the phone stage, and analogue buffering (volume control) to drive the amplifiers. Check with Dennis Had of Cary Audio and/or Dan Wright of ModWright to see which solution best fit your needs. Assuming that you're gonna have a full-fledged pre-amp, I would skim down on the mods to the source unit to save $$$ and possibly go with the new APL Sony where the bulk of the mods reside in the digital circuitry and power supplies rather than analogue stage which will be redundant when using a pre-amp. Just my 2-cents...

Spike
Yes, I agree with Spike, and this was where I was heading with my questioning as well. A GOOD pre-amp will always sound better than a "Y" connector or switch box, and give you the flexibility to control switching and volume functions. Another option would be to use a passive linestage; there are a number of them out there. The latter option would still require some sort of phono stage between the turntable and passive linestage.

A really good pre-amp is not an evil thing. Some would argue that direct driving a digital source with a volume control in the digital domain is actually worse sounding (although different sounding) than a good analog volume control. :rolleyes:

Robin

09-12-2006, 03:32 PM

Spike

09-12-2006, 03:47 PM

1). Would a simple "Y" type of switch be detrimental to the signal? If so exactly how? or why?
I recall asking Victor Khomenko of BAT this question and he mentioned that you'll lose 6db of signal amplitude for every RCA connection made.

2). Would it be possible to have a simple two channel (Phono / CD) tube pre-amp like Cary or Conrad Johnson etc., which would not color or flavor the signal at all?
Color is a subjective term. For example, Cary SLP-98 actually stands for "Sweet Little Preamp" meaning some coloration is involved :) Another good example is the ARC preamps which have been called "neutral" by some but "sterile, lifeless" by others. Go figure. Only you can determine what is colored or neutral.

3). Is it possible or advisible to Modwright - add volume control to a TT for direct control of two amps without a pre-amp?
There's been metion of a volume control for the ModWright phono-stage on the ModWright forum. Here's a quote from Dan Wright...

So far, the design will be as follows:

SE input and output - not balanced.
MM and MC - switchable.
MC gain = 65dB - 70dB is my goal.
Design will be hybrid SS and tube.
Cartridge loading will be possible.
Step-up transformers will not be used for MC gain.

Unit will be available as an upgrade option for the 9.0SE and as a standalone unit. Standalone unit may have volume control and one extra input for vinyl purists who want to run direct to their amp.

Spike

Robin

09-12-2006, 04:21 PM

Spike,

Fantastic! You ansewered all of my questions in one post. Thanks! Now I have much to consider... OK I'm convinced, I see the light, I do not want to "Y" switch. But now I have a lot to concider i. e., Dan Wright's - Modwright 9.0SE Standalone TT with volume control with extra out put - directly to my amplifiers... :D Or a Cary SLP-98 pre-amp. ;)

:D Thanks again...

Spike

09-13-2006, 09:33 AM

OK I'm convinced, I see the light, I do not want to "Y" switch. But now I have a lot to concider i. e., Dan Wright's - Modwright 9.0SE Standalone TT with volume control with extra out put - directly to my amplifiers...

Robin,
I don't think the ModWright phono standalone unit will work in this case due to the extremely high gain needed for phono. This high-gain factor will not work well with your digital source going into the extra input. That said, I think that the full-fledged ModWright SWLP-9.0 pre-amp (with phono capability) will work well in your system. Same with the Cary SLP-98 or the other pre-amps that I've mentioned in my previous post.
If you do decide to work with Dan Wright, you should tell him about your plan to combine high-quality digital and phono sources to a centralized pre-amp and then inquire about what kinds of mods/upgrades he would recommend for the digital source. You'd want to avoid having duplicating circuitry in the player AND the preamp. In the past, Dan and I have talked about low-level signal output transformers in the analog section to drive the (interconnect) cables. Maybe these transformers will work in this case (for example the output stage of a Denon 2910 universal player), replacing the stock active analogue stage. What I'm thinking to achieve here is to remove active components in order to get a "direct" connection between the DAC chip of the player to the input of the pre-amp, keeping the signal chain as short as possible. If you want to get more info on this type of passive output stage, kindly cruise over to Reference Audio Mods (http://www.referenceaudiomods.com) and read up on their Coupling/Signal Transformers (httphttp://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RAM&Category_Code=CTRANS) information page.

Good Luck
Spike

Robin

09-13-2006, 09:53 AM

Spike,

Thanks for all of your help with my vexing problems. Your assistance was just what I needed and more. :) I've got a better plan of action now and that's wonderful. :D

aliveatfive

09-13-2006, 10:31 AM

Robin -

Hate to add to your confusion, but I just thought of another possibility for you - The Manley Steelhead phono preamp. This is a tubed phono preamp that also has several line-source pass throughs for inputs. I do not think there is any amplification of any of the inputs with the exception of phono. BTW, this has been a very well regarded piece of equipment that many professional reviewers use. I use the new ARC PH7 phono pre run through my BAT VK51SE (preamp) to very good effect. I run my Esoteric DV50s (universal player) through the BAT with no apparent detriment to the sound. Just thought you might be interested

Robin

09-13-2006, 10:44 AM

aliveatfive,

The Manley Steelhead Phono tubed Pre-amp is definiately a great recommendation. I'll check it out as well. More choices and possibilities to concider is good, very good regarding this issue... :)

;) Thank you very much, It's never too late for a excellent recommendation or suggestion where audio quality is concerned. ;)

Spike

09-13-2006, 02:26 PM

Hate to add to your confusion, but I just thought of another possibility for you - The Manley Steelhead phono preamp. This is a tubed phono preamp that also has several line-source pass throughs for inputs.
Just some minor corrections regarding the Manley Steelhead. There are 2 MC inputs, 1 MM input and ONLY ONE line input. The line input bypasses the phono gain stage, but is still hooked up to the volume control and the output stage. Looking at this unit, it's really a full-blown pre-amplifier with emphassis on phono rather than linestage. Just from reading up on the spec, I think the Steelhead is just what Robin's been looking for. Great suggestion.

Spike

MiTT

09-13-2006, 04:11 PM

Mitt,

Thank you for your positive response, ideas and suggestions as well... :)

Please see my new post above (to Spike)....

What is a Passive Linstage? How does it work? Is it an amp or pre-amp or a better switching devise? What would be a good brand to consider for a Passive Linestage?
Robin,

First off, I'm an amature, not an expert, so others may want to weigh in here. I do have some understanding and will elaborate as succinctly as I can, but a bit of history regarding how Pre-amps in general and volume controls specifically work is necessary. Sorry if this is too rudimentary, but I don't know how else to explain it.

All of our systems consist of source components (cd players, turntables, tuners, tape decks), amplification components (phono stages, Pre-amps, power amps, integrated amps, receivers - this last includes a source component in the tuner section), and transducers (speakers or headphones).

Source components typically output very low level signals called line level signals. Phono cartridges - especially moving coil cartridges - produce such a low level signal that an additional amplification stage (a phono stage) is required to boost this very low level signal up to a line level. Line level signals are the inputs to your typical receiver/processor/pre-amp. The minimum function of the input stage of your receiver/processor/pre-amp is to provide switching functions between sources and volume control. Many receivers/processors/pre-amps also have controls for things such as balance, phase, tone controls, tape loops and in the case of many receivers and processors, multi room controls, Dolby Digital and DTS processing etc. Some, but not all, of these devices also add an additional level of amplification to provide even more gain to the signal that is then fed to either an internal or external set of power amplifiers -2 channel, 5.1 channel, 7.1 channel etc.

The amount of gain contributed by a pre-amplifier stage to the audio signal is the core issue that I am trying to expound upon here. The differences between passive line stages, good pre-amps, and lower level pre-amps and receivers centers around how gain is employed (if it is employed), and how the volume control on these components operates. In a passive line stage there is no additional gain stage in the signal path. Line levels signals are passed through the device by means of a very high quality switching network and volume is controlled by means of an attenuator (usually a series of very high quality, closely tolerenced resistors or resitor networks). Run at maximum volume, the attenuator adds no resistance to the signal path. Volume is controlled by adding or subtracting resistance.

High Quality pre-amps actually function in much the same way to be honest with you. Full function pre-amps (those that include a phono stage) do have gain associated with the phono stage, and most have some amount of gain associated with their specific circuit topography, but many, depending on their design, function essentially as a passive device through at least a portion of their overal gain capability. That is to say that, depending on the circuit designers intent and execution, gain may not be added until the volume control (or attenuation) reaches a certain point, at which time changes in the volume control deviate from gain attenuation to active amplification. I know that BAT, ARC, Conrad Johnson, McCormack, Manley, Cary and others employ such hybrid (passive/active) type circuits to one degree or another.

Lastly, lower level components and receivers function as more fully active devices, often employing single resistor networks or even single solid state digital circuits (chips) to control volume functions that are handled by the many closely specified discreet devices that make up higher quality attenuators and volume controls. A lot of the money that we spend on more expensive equipment of this type is tied up in these high quality discreet components that literally cost pennys to manufacture as mass market solid state devices.

If you are interested in a passive linestage many would say that the best one available is the Audio Synthesis Passion shown below. It has 3 line level inputs as well as a "Direct" input that bypasses the input selector completely. This may be just the sort of thing you are looking for, although the Manley Steelhead that aliveatfive and Spike mentioned is a supperb unit as well.

Keep in mind what I mentioned though about the circuit topography of many GOOD modern pre-amps, and of course, above all, trust your own ears.

Robin

09-13-2006, 04:35 PM

Tim,

Wow! :D Amazingly informative discription for the process of a passive linestage amplifier. I'm blown away... That was simply wonderful. :) Now I finially understand, for the first time, what a passive linestage is supposed to do. Excellent writing if I may say so... I appreciate your taking the time to explain this to me. Thanks again Tim, this means a lot to me... ;)

edwinr

09-13-2006, 04:46 PM

Great post, Tim. I'm a bit wary of line level preamps. Unless they're properly engineered, they can offer poor sound quality - this is based primarily on my listening to them, no technical opinions here! I understand what these line level preamps are meant to do, but I'm curious as to the electrical load as seen by the power amp. I thought that if the electrical load (impedance?) is not correct, then the power amp may not operate as it should, or bandwidth is curtailed, etc.

ASantos

09-14-2006, 02:49 AM

Robin,

I have the DCS P8i. I think it only doesn`t respect you #4.

Robin

09-23-2006, 12:08 PM

Tim, Spike, aliveatfive, or anyone,,,

What do you guys think of the "Music First - Passive Magnetic" Preamp? :confused:
It is a different kind of passive preamp technology than, The Ultimate Passion's traditional many resistors high quality passive preamp. Please see this review and tell me what you think:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/musicfirst/passive.html

I had never knew of this kind of passive preamp before researching it a lot further - thanks to Tim - I've been astounded by the real quality of the Ultimate Passion and now this Magnetic Passive... :)

Robin

09-23-2006, 12:15 PM

The Music First is also a UK based company. It seems a lot of excellent passive preamps come from the UK. ;)
Well, the Opra Audio - Consonance, comes from China. The Consonance is another magnetic passive preamp as well. But I diegress.

:) Anyway Here is another photo of the rear view of the -
Music First Passive Preamp:

aliveatfive

09-23-2006, 01:19 PM

Robin

09-23-2006, 01:49 PM

Robin -

Theoretically, you'll have a switching device with no distortion whatsoever. You must be aware, however, of the impedance that your power amp will require and what kind of cables you'll be able to use. If you do get that Mac 275, find out what it needs to see at the preamp end. You don't want incompatibility. BTW, the Absolute Sound (latest issue) listed your Mac in its Editors' Choice section.
aliveatfive,

I would theoretically plan to run balanced cables between the source, MF - Magnetic Preamp, and the McIntosh MC 275. I do know the MC 275 requires six volts to "see" or drive the amplifiers...

My question is, since the Music First - Magnetic Preamp doesn't have any power, I would theoretically need either a source with power level out or an active preamp in order to drive the MC 275's, is that correct?

aliveatfive

09-23-2006, 02:56 PM

aliveatfive,

I would theoretically plan to run balanced cables between the source, MF - Magnetic Preamp, and the McIntosh MC 275. I do know the MC 275 requires six volts to "see" or drive the amplifiers...

My question is, since the Music First - Magnetic Preamp doesn't have any power, I would theoretically need either a source with power level out or an active preamp in order to drive the MC 275's, is that correct?

Robin -

I just looked up the amp on the McIntosh website. They quote in order to drive the amp to full power you need 1.2 volts single-ended (RCA connectors) or 2.5 volts balanced (XLR connectors). That means that your non-passive device (cd player, tuner, etc.) would have to output that many volts in order to drive the amp to full power. If your source devices do not have that much power, you would need an active preamplifier or line-stage. I would use short, low capacitance cables if you go with the passive line-stage.

edwinr

09-23-2006, 03:33 PM

Robin, that magnetic preamp review was very well written. I thought it was well balanced and fair. So we can accept that the Music First is an outstanding example of the genre. But we also have to accept that any passive preamp has some limitations when it comes to amplifier matching. I know some power amplifiers require a compatible electronic load - otherwise they won't work properly.

Also, lets talk about value for money... Most passive preamps are incredibly overpriced. How these high prices can be justified - I have idea. The Music First seems better value for money, but still...

I just don't know, Robin. If this pre can give you the transparency you're after, maybe you'll have to pay this kind of money. But I think there are better alternatives.

Robin

09-24-2006, 05:11 AM

Robin

09-24-2006, 05:30 AM

edwinr,

:) It's encouraging to know you concur with the article of the - Music First Magnetic Passive preamp - 6moon's review but now I am very curious as to what you would recommend as alternative improvement(s) to consider, for the exclusive ML music direct (uncolored) system, such as I am proposing? I value your input, please tell me what ideas you would suggest. :o

aliveatfive

09-24-2006, 08:30 AM

aliveatfive,

Thank you for clarifying this simple point, which just had eluded me... :) The good news is all of the sources I'm considering deliver at least 2.5 Vms (Balanced) out put and at least 1.5 Vms (unbalanced) out put.

Anyway your wonderful explanation has been valuable to me. Thanks again for clarifying this important technical issue. Now I know what I must look for in a source to passive preamp, to amp especially, later on, in the finial auditioning phase of my audio quest.

Robin -

Just to further confuse the issue: Some (many) phono preamps do not have the grunt to drive a power amp through a passive line stage. If you ever decide to do vinyl (a very good idea in my opinion) you'll not get a useable phono signal through a pass-through switching device. Consult all specifications very carefully if you decide to go this route. There are many true line stages (that amplify) that really do no harm to the purity of the signal. Audition first if you can. This could be a very big decision for you.

risabet

09-24-2006, 10:44 AM

MiTT

09-24-2006, 11:05 AM

My personal opinion, keeping in mind that I haven't heard the passive you are considering, is that passives can reproduce the tonal balance of music exceptionally well but fall down dramatically in the areas of dynamics and pacing or PRaT. I've yet to hear a passive that generates anyhere near the dynamic shading and power of an active unit.

YMMV
Robin,

Risabet and aliveatfive have both hit the nail on the head in my opinion, and are advocating what I was saying all along. I would urge you to take any opportunity to listen to a really good active pre-amp, I think your fears would be quelled.

As you all know I'm a big proponent of BAT gear, but I also love the sound of the latest generation Audio Research gear, Conrad Johnson, Hovland, VAC, Cary, Tom Evans etc. Truth be told I would always recommend a vacum tube pre-amp, but that's just me. Many, many good solid state devices as well - Krell, Classe, Sim Audio, Rowland, Boulder, Burmeister, MBL. Both lists could go on and on.

My point is that a GOOD pre-amp will blow away any receiver or mid-fi component, and I believe still satisfy the desire for beautiful, uncolored sound that you are craving

Robin

09-24-2006, 02:48 PM

aliveatfive, risabet and Tim,

I understand what you are all saying. I know your recommendations are excellent and you know of what you speak. However, I think for me, it's all going to come down to the auditioning phase... On paper some models are wonderful but I know that is not the ultimate comparision test.
My ears must decide... Roberto is an audio God... (I just thought I'd throw that in here).

I have auditioned some but I will also, now include active preamps in my auditioning just because I want to compare the active sound with the passive sound, as you guys have suggested. I will post my finding, when I'm closer.

Thanks guys. :) I really appreciate all of you help. :D

edwinr

09-24-2006, 10:13 PM

Now, Robin, I don't have a technical background, although I have some small understanding from reading and dabbling with kits etc. So my opinion is purely subjective. I have not heard the Music First preamp. I have heard other preamps both at home and in various shops. The overall impression I have obtained is one of a rather flat and univolving sound. Nothing I can point a finger at, but there's always been something lacking. Now from what I have read of the other posts here, it may very well be a lack of dynamic range - this may explain the rather 'flat' sound I have heard. So I guess if the power amp is not presented with a signal of the correct electrical load, or the signal level is insufficient, the power amp is not able to do it's job properly.

As to preamp options, I have heard the new Audio Research Reference 3. Wow! This is a great preamp. But it does cost though. I can't afford to buy it... yet.

Robin

09-25-2006, 07:58 AM

edwinr,

The Audio Research Refrence 3 is impressive, most impressive - tubed preamp. ;) I will try to audition this beauty and others when I am closer to having saved-up enough. Wonderful recommendation edwinr... :)

jjqiv

09-25-2006, 11:07 AM

Robin -

Just to further confuse the issue: Some (many) phono preamps do not have the grunt to drive a power amp through a passive line stage. If you ever decide to do vinyl (a very good idea in my opinion) you'll not get a useable phono signal through a pass-through switching device. Consult all specifications very carefully if you decide to go this route. There are many true line stages (that amplify) that really do no harm to the purity of the signal. Audition first if you can. This could be a very big decision for you.

I use a Placette Passive Preamp with my Modded EAR 834P phonostage. In fact, you can get 834P's that include an attenuator. Not equal to the quality of the Placette though.

conrad

09-27-2006, 06:11 AM

Robin

09-27-2006, 01:19 PM

Robin -

I just looked up the amp on the McIntosh website. They quote in order to drive the amp to full power you need 1.2 volts single-ended (RCA connectors) or 2.5 volts balanced (XLR connectors). That means that your non-passive device (cd player, tuner, etc.) would have to output that many volts in order to drive the amp to full power. If your source devices do not have that much power, you would need an active preamplifier or line-stage. I would use short, low capacitance cables if you go with the passive line-stage.
aliveatfive,

Your above post really got me thinking of low capacitance in any future cables I select. ;) Short runs of cables, as the voltage can dimmenish in longer lenghts (depending on the quality of cable of course) as well. In my researching to this very point, I found a wonderful article detailing, what you are saying.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/features/605cable/

I'd like to know what you think as well as folks here, of this point of view regarding capacitance in cable? :)

Robin

09-27-2006, 01:22 PM

Hi,

You really should checkout the Consonance Droplet, Consonance Reference 2.3 (2.2 is old model already but 2.3 is not globally sold yet) and also YBA Passion 600 CD Player.

YBA is probably as "LP" or "turntable" as a CD player can get.

Regards,

CONRAD
conrad,

:D Welcome to the ML Club!
I had never heard of the Droplet 2.3 version or the YBA Passion 600 CD player. :o I will difinitely check them out.

Thank you for the great recommendation. :D

Robin

09-27-2006, 02:20 PM

aliveatfive,

Their has been some rigorous testing of the quality of metals as well as different types of metals used in cables to improve capacitance i. e., Gold Silver and Copper. Check this out from Dual Connect Precious Metal Cables:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dualconnect/dualconnect.html

It is a fascinating subject capacitance in cables... ;)

Robin

09-29-2006, 08:38 AM

aliveatfive,

I found the lastest cable - wire techological innovation to be quite fascinating check it out:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/interconnects/interconnects.html

Apparently, glassocaoted amorphous wire is 1/3 the thickness of a blonde human hair, and it can carry the most superb musical signal. :D The only company (that I know of) that manufactures a product using this technology is the Stealth Indra - the core platinum + molybdenum + gold alloy wire is only 20 microns thick but they say it has the best sound of any cable in the world today. It only cost $5,800 for a 1M pair of IC's.

aliveatfive

09-29-2006, 08:49 AM

Robin -

There has always been a debate on the virtues of having long runs of interconnect versus having long runs of speaker cable. Of course much of this is related to how close you can position your amp and preamp to your speakers. I've always tried to limit the connections between my amp and preamp to about a meter of IC cable. My speakercables (currently AQ Mont Blanc) are about 10 feet long. I do not notice any problems using this legnth of cable. I'm still in the process of evaluating my ARC REF110, and when I do, I'll post the results. All I can say is "so many variables!"

Robin

03-07-2007, 09:14 AM

Beat_Dominator

03-07-2007, 11:39 AM

If you saw my new Digital player, I'm now a Marantz SACD fan ;)

Have you seen that there are a few dCS p8i players on audiogon right now? Volume control and everything!

Robin

03-07-2007, 12:02 PM

If you saw my new Digital player, I'm now a Marantz SACD fan ;)

Have you seen that there are a few dCS p8i players on audiogon right now? Volume control and everything!
BD,

Yes, I have and the DCS P8i is difinately still on my short list as well. :D

Although the current reviews of the Marantz SA-7S1 player are really incredibly great. :D Especially, one of the reviews inparticular. It caught my eye as it was from a audiophile, who has accually owned a Accuphase 78 as well as a DCS P8i and now owns the new Marantz SA-7S1 CD/SACD player. He states unequivially that the Marantz SA-7S1 is by far the very best sounding CD/SACD player he has ever owned. And goes into great detail explaining just why... I'll try to find that review and post it here. He was on one of the other audio forums... It was an excellent, long and detailed review. It was so good I actually printed it out. I'll look again and see if I can find it, again. :cheers:

Beat_Dominator

03-07-2007, 12:11 PM

Ooooh sounds awesome! :)

Jeff Zaret

03-07-2007, 01:43 PM

I guess my player is chop liver huh?

Jeff:cool:

slowGEEZR

03-07-2007, 01:47 PM

:D I am currently leaning towards:

1). Marantz SA-7S1 CD/SACD source.
2). Cary Audio SLP 05 Preamp
3). Two Pass Labs XA-160 ~ Class-A Mono-blocks

But I am actually very curious about the Lindermann 820 CD/SACD source. :) Could it drive tubed amplifiers adequitly? Has anyone here ever actually heard a Lindermann 820 player? No dealers in No. California I'm afraid... :cool:

Robin, I'm also going through the decision process on a good CD/SACD source. Have you considered the Lexicon RT-20? It's the one I'm leaning towards, as every review I've read says the sound quality is about as good as the reviewer has heard. As another benefit, it also does DVD-audio, DVD-video and other formats. - Steve

HopelessDFilms

03-07-2007, 02:00 PM

Robin-

I browsed through this thread, not sure if this has already been posted, but I have personally spent a handful of hours auditioning the Krell SACD player with the Krell 401xi amp on a set of Vantages, and needless to say it sounds AMAZING!!! CRISP CLEAR AND WARM! The clarity of the sound out of this system is simply amazing..... I'm sure that when you put it through your anthem the sound will only become even better!

It fits into your pricing criteria, as it retails at 4000$, although with a lil bit of haggling i'm sure you could get a nice chunk taken off of it. They are simple and easy to find for demoing, as most tweeters carry it and will have it set up in a separate sound room. Remember to bring your favorite SACD! And also feel free to reposition those speakers to create the optimal positioning and soundstage, as most of the people at those stores are not as discerning of listeners as we at MLC are...

Hope you find something good soon....I wish I had the dough for all this gear, but there will always be that want for MORE MORE MORE!!!! I am contemplating on two options currently, upgrading receiver to HDMI so I can use the PS3 as SACD player, or buying the oppo 981 upconverting dvd player with analog outs and hooking that up to the receiver. It comes down to, how much do I want to spend right now? And in the long run am I better off? I have an upconver dvd player already, so I would really only be getting it for sacd....who knows..only time will tell.

Hope the tips help.:cheers:

HopelessDFilms

03-07-2007, 02:11 PM

Robin-

Here is some technical mumbo jumbo, don't know if it means anything to ya, I have trouble keeping up with some of the terminology and relevance to how it affects the sound, but here it is anyways...

http://www.stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/1203krell/index5.html

Jeff Zaret

03-07-2007, 03:03 PM

....................and this is my player

Jeff:cool:

Beat_Dominator

03-07-2007, 03:06 PM

Jeff is lying, I have seen no proof of this ;)

Jeff Zaret

03-07-2007, 03:26 PM

Oh I see how it is......................................

dissed by one of my brethern

Robin

03-08-2007, 10:29 AM

Ooooh sounds awesome! :)
BD,

Well, it was at the Audioasylum forum, Philly B.'s review of the Marantz SA-7S1 CD/SACD player. Philly B. does refer to DCS gear. Philly B.'s did own a DCS P8i CD/SACD player, which he reviewed as well.
I found his Marantz SA-7S1 review very illuminating here it is:

http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/vt.pl?f=hirez&m=232238

Philly B. has owned and reviewed half dozen CD/SACD players over the past six years like: The Accuphase 77, Esoteric X-03, McIntosh MCD201, Sony SCD 1, Cary 306, and DCS P8i... Philly B. even auditioned a $20K - Linn CD12, which sounded the best with Redbook until he heard the Marantz SA-7S1... now that's high praise. ;)

Robin

03-19-2007, 09:24 AM

:) I was thinking, I may have just figured out something, Please tell me what you think....

Could a Marantz SA-7S1 CD/SACD player connected directly with a McIntosh MC275 Mk IV, technically work, without a peramp? If I ran unbalanced cables connecting the two together?
I was reading the owners manuals for both of these pieces of electronics. I found that the Marantz SA-7S1 produces 2.5 V RMS for unbalanced output. While the McIntosh MC275 Mk IV's unbalanced input sensitivity is rated at 1.2 V RMS.

The McIntosh MC275 Mk IV has volume controls for unbalanced only. The volume level adjustment controls knobs are located on the amplifier, for both stereo and mono for unbalanced only adjustments. This means that I could use unbalanced, short run, low resistance high quality cable (1 meter cable) directly from the Marantz SA-7S1 to the McIntosh MC275 Mk IV and control the volume from the amplifier, correct? :confused:

I think this could work.... What do you guys think? Could this combination work without a preamp? :confused:

It is times like this, I wish I was an audio science person, who just knew this kinda stuff... :o

I'm vexed again, Please help...