Why do ML panels die?

I've got 2 pairs SL3 and a pair of Request( all with active X-overs) and had lots of other stats over the years, still have 2 pairs of KingSound "Kings", probably better sounding speakers than the ML but can not go near the levels the ML's can without arcing over.
So I love the ML's but what's with all the dead panels that is such a common theme here?
My SL3's are fine, but the Requests are in need of new panels, which are ordered.
I've had stats over 25 years old (Crown) that were as good as the day they were made, and plenty of other stats can go forever with out fading away like the ML's.
What happens, does the conductive coating break down?
Why does the whole panel have to be replaced? Is it possible to pull the panels apart and recoat the film?
Can the panel be sent to ML for refurbishment ? Seems wasteful to ditch the whole thing, although I'm in Australia so probably expensive.

westoz said:

I've got 2 pairs SL3 and a pair of Request( all with active X-overs) and had lots of other stats over the years, still have 2 pairs of KingSound "Kings", probably better sounding speakers than the ML but can not go near the levels the ML's can without arcing over.
So I love the ML's but what's with all the dead panels that is such a common theme here?
My SL3's are fine, but the Requests are in need of new panels, which are ordered.
I've had stats over 25 years old (Crown) that were as good as the day they were made, and plenty of other stats can go forever with out fading away like the ML's.
What happens, does the conductive coating break down?
Why does the whole panel have to be replaced? Is it possible to pull the panels apart and recoat the film?
Can the panel be sent to ML for refurbishment ? Seems wasteful to ditch the whole thing, although I'm in Australia so probably expensive.

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Hola...go to the tweak section at this forum and read how to give a good shower to the stat panels...you will get them back to sing again...follow the detail instructions, and easy to follow. It seems that the problem is dust, and with clear water you solve the problem. Do not use any detergent or chemicals, just running water. Happy listening,
Roberto.

Thanks, but that doesn't answer my question as to why the panels die- giving them a wash only helps in some circumstances, not every panel is resurrected by washing (and yes I did wash my Requests) I suspect that as far as the Requests go they have a definitive lifetime and once it is up that is it.
Again, this panel problem keeps coming up, and if it is not a case of needing a clean, what causes this problem?

I would assume the main reason is loss of conductive coating,loose mylar,and overall age.Roger Sanders gives lifetime warranties on his panels.I posted the question to Angela that visits this site but received no answer.I asked how many panels has Roger or the companies he has worked for replaced over the years.I am curious to know why he can give a lifetime warranty on all panels and ML cannot.The problems with Roger is he is a one man show.If something happens to him,where are you going to go? Hopefully he or Angela will see this and reply.

westoz said:

I've got 2 pairs SL3 and a pair of Request( all with active X-overs) and had lots of other stats over the years, still have 2 pairs of KingSound "Kings", probably better sounding speakers than the ML but can not go near the levels the ML's can without arcing over.
So I love the ML's but what's with all the dead panels that is such a common theme here?
My SL3's are fine, but the Requests are in need of new panels, which are ordered.
I've had stats over 25 years old (Crown) that were as good as the day they were made, and plenty of other stats can go forever with out fading away like the ML's.
What happens, does the conductive coating break down?
Why does the whole panel have to be replaced? Is it possible to pull the panels apart and recoat the film?
Can the panel be sent to ML for refurbishment ? Seems wasteful to ditch the whole thing, although I'm in Australia so probably expensive.

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Good question. If it's the coating is washing them such a good idea? My guess is UV light has to be one of the culprits if so why don't people have covers for them for that reason?

Horchem1972 said:

I would assume the main reason is loss of conductive coating,loose mylar,and overall age.Roger Sanders gives lifetime warranties on his panels.I posted the question to Angela that visits this site but received no answer.I asked how many panels has Roger or the companies he has worked for replaced over the years.I am curious to know why he can give a lifetime warranty on all panels and ML cannot.The problems with Roger is he is a one man show.If something happens to him,where are you going to go? Hopefully he or Angela will see this and reply.

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Sanders Sound Systems has not been around that long. Roger got reamed by Innersound (speakers he designed from the ground up etc...) and after awhile started up another company after the Innersound moguls killed the company... The bottom line is - your question re: lifetime warranty - sometimes when you are a small startup - you have to offer more in order to gain the trust of your customer. More power to Roger - I was looking at Innersounds right before the takeover - and when I was going to go have a listen - the actual retail of the speakers practically tripled. Then I heard about the new company - and I questioned their viability because of lack of distribution channels.... So - that was out.

Environmental conditions seem to be a contributing factor to panel failure. I.E. direct sunlight or chemicals, Windex, cleaners, ammonia fumes, solvent fumes and other cleaning liquids or sprays will damage panels. Other indoor pollutants can coat the panels and weaken them. Some common culprits are cigarette smoke, fireplace heat, smoke, dust and fine ashes, cigarette smoke, dust in general, pet dander, cat/dog hair, ozone produced by UV bulbs or electric motors (in rare cases), pollen, cooking oils or other substances are just a few environmental pollutants that come to mind. Some of these will wash off with water and some will not.

All of these listed are preventable! I doubt playing the speakers have much, if any, effect on panel life.

You can't judge panel failure rates based off forum postings. Most people will only post when they have a problem which creates a skewed perception of a high failure rate. There is no way to know how many panels were produced and how many are still playing just fine.

It's really not worth rebuilding a panel. The parts to build a panel are relatively cheap and not worth the cost of shipping back and forth. I've seen a pair of Summit panels being built in person and one could easily see that it's the hands-on, skill, experience and craft that costs the most.

Craig said:

Environmental conditions seem to be a contributing factor to panel failure. I.E. direct sunlight or chemicals, Windex, cleaners, ammonia fumes, solvent fumes and other cleaning liquids or sprays will damage panels. Other indoor pollutants can coat the panels and weaken them. Some common culprits are cigarette smoke, fireplace heat, smoke, dust and fine ashes, cigarette smoke, dust in general, pet dander, cat/dog hair, ozone produced by UV bulbs or electric motors (in rare cases), pollen, cooking oils or other substances are just a few environmental pollutants that come to mind.

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Which is why my better half created tuxedo pinstriped covers for my former SL3's. I've always kept my ML's covered when not in use. Beyond that, there's a large pct. of user's that don't perform required routine maintenance which is said to extend the life of a panel.

So if it is environmental damage , it must be a breakdown of the conductive coating . I've been told by the horses mouth that Requests are lucky to get 8 years, however the newer models seem to be better, so is it fair to deduce that the conductive coating has been improved, and that it was/is ML's achilles heel? This panel death thing is not common or even rare with other stat brands, but panel replacement is quite common to ML from my observations.

I'm sure the panel isn't easy to build and the price seems quite reasonable, however it does seem a waste to throw the old units out, and recycling is a good thing imo.
So has anyone rebuilt a dead panel? Surely it's just a matter of replacing the mylar film with a new piece that has been coated with conductive coating. Might be tricky , but not impossible.
I've heard rumours of a guy doing it here in Australia, but nothing on the web.
Any knowledge on this forum?

My pair of CLSIIz's were nearly 25 years old when I replaced the panels and they weren't all that bad but the new ones were better and worth the upgrade. That is a very good lifespan and probably better than most cone speakers. They have improved the conductive coating since the earlier models and that's supposed to improve panel lifespan. Martin Logan worked with 3M on the improving the coating. I don't think it deteriorates much unless it's exposed to harsh environments. But 3M would know for sure. Keeping them covered when not in use is a smart idea.

There are members on this forum who have recycled panels. JonFo made framed acoustic wall panels with color back lighting for use in his home theater and Brad225 used my old CLS panels as non-functional but decorative lower panels in his custom framed CLSIIz speakers. C.A.P used old panels for reverse engineering and destructive testing to learn more about their construction, durability and heat threshold. Others have used them as custom speakers of various sorts. I'm not aware of anyone trying to rebuild them and I doubt it would be cost effective for a business.

I have a project idea to recycle ESL panels and make a pair of framed wall sconces. Anyone have a pair of panels they'd like to donate? I'll pay the shipping.

One of our members reconditioned his Sequel II film (in the DIY section).

Environmental pollution is the main contributing factor. Cigarette smoke, dust and cooking oils. Keep them clean by vacuuming regularly and never expose the speakers to cigarette smoke or cooking oils. Keeping them covered when not in use is probably also a good idea - large rubbish bags are great if you have nothing else.

We had one guy here that smoked in his house (but not in his listening room) - of course, his speakers were shot after 5 years!

Remember these things are electrically charged and conduct any microscopic debris that is airborne. Ever see a moth get caught in the Mylar and its a lightning storm.

Ii have found dust and Humidity the rel killer. Humid weather will dampen the panels and make them easy to clog with pollutants. I have had brand new Quest Panels go out in 6 weeks in humid weather. Fire place dust is a real killer to. Although it is I still use mine near one as its a trade off. I constantly clean mine with a feather duster and vacuum. Its a crap shoot. These things are MYLAR . plastic coated conductors. Heat in room from sunlight will not hurt the Mylar as I tested this with a heat gun. It will re-shrink mylar. The coating may be effected. but nothing showed signs of damage. Most people don't realize the 3 m tape they use fails and lets the Mylar loose. Its a trade off.

Well I checked out Rob McKingley and he can supply materials to resurrect ML panels, funny thing is he only lives 300km from me.
Very much looking forward to doing this- seems such a waste to ditch old tired panels- frankly I amazed that someone in the US isn't supplying materials.

Horchem1972 said:

I would assume the main reason is loss of conductive coating,loose mylar,and overall age. Roger Sanders gives lifetime warranties on his panels.I posted the question to Angela that visits this site but received no answer.I asked how many panels has Roger or the companies he has worked for replaced over the years.I am curious to know why he can give a lifetime warranty on all panels and ML cannot.The problems with Roger is he is a one man show.If something happens to him,where are you going to go? Hopefully he or Angela will see this and reply.

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Hi! I must have missed your question from another post. I didn't get an email notification. Please allow me to answer it here. I am sitting on the sofa, drinking wine, with my laptop watching World Rally Racing with Roger. I asked Roger this question. Sorry if it sounds like a commercial - not intended to be, but here are the facts:

Sanders Sound Systems is the only manufacturer that has solved the incredibly difficult problem of having perfect stator insulation to 20,000 volts. Also, diaphragm coatings are absolutely reliable and cannot be dislodged from the diaphragm. As a result, arcing simply cannot occur and panels are immune to humidity and can be driven with multi-thousand watt amplifiers to ear bleeding levels without damage. A life time guarantee is offered because the panels simply don't fail.
While, in the early years of Innersound, panels were replaced (using similar technology as ML using powder coated perforated metal stators and ML Indium tin oxide sputtered diaphragm coatings), with the new Ultra Stat panels, there have been NO failures, thus NO replacements.
Note: there were some panels, that were built incorrectly by the Innersound that was left after Roger left in 2004, were replaced due to low output.

Thank you for the response.I do greatly appreciate your time.I do find it interesting that a smaller company such as Roger's can offer lifetime replacement and ML cannot.There should be no reason as to why ML has not figured this out over their 30 years in production.The simple solution states that they would like the notion of always having the supply of income.

There probably is a reason that we are not aware of.

In addition, the revenue stream for panel replacement is, for all practical purposes, totally insignificant for a company of this size.

GG

Angela said:

Sanders Sound Systems is the only manufacturer that has solved the incredibly difficult problem of having perfect stator insulation to 20,000 volts. Also, diaphragm coatings are absolutely reliable and cannot be dislodged from the diaphragm. As a result, arcing simply cannot occur and panels are immune to humidity and can be driven with multi-thousand watt amplifiers to ear bleeding levels without damage. A life time guarantee is offered because the panels simply don't fail.[/I]

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So one man band Roger has achieved what ML hasn't? I'm surprised more hasn't been made of this. Just what is ML R&D actually doing for a living if this is true? If they'd solved this problem years ago I know it would have saved me a lot of money and hassle.

C'mon ML - if this is indeed true and doable, then make better longer living panels ASAP.

To be fair, I think it might have something to do with Roger sells how many panels? ML sell that x1000 maybe? Or more?

Gordon Gray said:

There probably is a reason that we are not aware of.

In addition, the revenue stream for panel replacement is, for all practical purposes, totally insignificant for a company of this size.

GG

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How can you say it is insignificant.I bet you would be surprised at their revenue achieved by selling new panels.If Roger can do it,there is no reason why a company as large as ML cannot .I love my Logans,but come on.I am not blind or deaf.ML makes way more money off their speakers than Roger Sanders does and he offers lifetime replacement panels.He also tranfers the warranty if you buy them used.It sounds like he is more confident in the build quality of his panels than ML is.With Mr. Sanders selling less speakers it is even more impressive that he offers lifetime warranties on the panels,since his profit margins are even lower.